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Grenseal Profile
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Ultima Weapon
 


Reg: 11-2003
Loc: Port City Baltimore
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


quote:

God gave us Free will, so that means we do good and evil things. War n stuff was made by humans and not God. Nature events(landsides) only become evil when a human gets in the way. Some say taht God does stop some things but sometimes dosn't.



    Yet god still made us fully knowing the decisions we would make. There is a complicit acceptance of evil in those actions. Why give your creation free will, with the knowledge they will commit evil acts, and then turn around and blame them for committing such evil acts??? The whole thing smacks of double standards.
  Also you say such things are human acts only, but I think you are mistaken. In certain instances god orders his people to go to war. Lemme show you.

------
Numbers 31:
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the children of Israel. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.”
3 So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm some of yourselves for war, and let them go against the Midianites to take vengeance for the LORD on Midian. 4 A thousand from each tribe of all the tribes of Israel you shall send to the war.”
5 So there were recruited from the divisions of Israel one thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6 Then Moses sent them to the war, one thousand from each tribe; he sent them to the war with Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, with the holy articles and the signal trumpets in his hand. 7 And they warred against the Midianites, just as the LORD commanded Moses, and they killed all the males. 8 They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of those who were killed—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. Balaam the son of Beor they also killed with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took the women of Midian captive, with their little ones, and took as spoil all their cattle, all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 They also burned with fire all the cities where they dwelt, and all their forts. 11 And they took all the spoil and all the booty—of man and beast.


-----
and it doesn't end there
-----

Then they brought the captives, the booty, and the spoil to Moses, to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the children of Israel, to the camp in the plains of Moab by the Jordan, across from Jericho. 13 And Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the congregation, went to meet them outside the camp. 14 But Moses was angry with the officers of the army, with the captains over thousands and captains over hundreds, who had come from the battle.
15 And Moses said to them: “Have you kept all the women alive? 16 Look, these women caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. 18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.



--------
Hmmm now I wonder why they would keep all the young girls who have now known a man intimately? Anyway my point is god breaks his own rules.


quote:

I never said Dawkins agreed with the Designer Argument but he did say it is a hard one to knock down.



  Yeah but you were using it in a way to try and bolster your argument. My point was Dawkins is a strong proponent against the design argument.


quote:

In what way?



    One just needs to look at some of the claims they make and it becomes apparent. Take the whole Noah's Ark story for instance. Its just completely ridiculous.

---
Icewind Dale II talk

Ulbrec: ...Ennelia and Braston will meet you there, Targos's fate hinges on your success.

My response: I think Targos's fate hinges on how much Shawford can pay us from the Targos treasury.

15/Jun/07, 3:21 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 01-2006
Posts: 554
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


Because through evil acts we can develop. Could you imagine a world where there was no evil? It would be stupid. God gave humans free will, he can't really stop them fighting nor can he stop them loving. It is strange because is all perfect so he should be able to. I don't think God is good or evil because he is all perfect(well meant to be), thus if you say he is good or evil then you're sort of saying that good and evil are above him in a way. That good and evil are separate entities that go above the power of God, rather than he created them.

That text is also the God of the Old Testament, the evil God. The God of the New Testament is happy :D

The events of Noah's ark happed but probably not on the scale which described. They said the whole world was flooded, well no but at the time there was a huge flood in the Middle East and that was the whole world to those people.
16/Jun/07, 11:52 am Link 2 this post  
 
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Guardian
 


Reg: 08-2005
Loc: Kuroishi -shi, Aomori Japan
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


General, you are doing a horrible job trying to balance all of the conflicting points you are trying to stand on.

As the old saying goes, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

There are things in the world that happen that are evil, and that cannot be laid at the feet of humans. HOrrible mutations that lead to short, pain filled lives are a prime example. If God created all there is, then God is directly responsible for the pain of those who mutate in such a way.

And that is only one example. You can not have a Creator God and try to claim that God has no responsibility for what happens in the Universe that God creates.

The God of the Old Testament and of the New Testament are one and the same. Generally, many Christians try to claim that Jesus brough a new Covenant with God, so the Old Testament is no longer binding. They run into problems because that makes God look inconsistent, and still does not deny that God did the things ascribed to God in the Old Testament, such as Flooding the World to rid the world of all the evil creatures that God had created, and sending Angels to destroy entire civilizations.



---

16/Jun/07, 1:39 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM MSN YIM
 
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Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
Loc: London, England
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


Well I see this topic got brought back to life. Okie dokie, I'll reply to a few things General Queeaqueg mentioned..

Firstly I'd like to say what great posts have been made! I agree with you on most things Cleamatra and well done for the well written posts. Same goes to Grenseal too as usual. :up:

Let me begin by saying I'm very non-religious. I don't waste my time believing in something without one bit of evidence to support its existence. Sure, like Gren said believing in God is fine because its natural for a person to think we were created by someone/something. But as he said its when people believe whole heartedly that the Christian God of the Bible is correct that it becomes absurd. I don't understand how people can say they 'know 100% God exists', completey go against Evolution, and believe stories like that of Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve are true for a fact. How can anyone be this way? Well in my honest opinion(forgive me if I offend), people like this are what we call ignorant and small minded. They're just not open to anything that disproves the very thing they believe in most, they want to believe theres a higher being, they want to have that security and safety that Jesus/God is there for you and loves you, to have somewhat of a purpose, belonging, rules in which to be governed by. They want to be able to confess things they believe are wrong and regret, so if they're forgiven by God everythings all right and they're released/saved. Religion is there for people to feel better and secure in their life, and not to mention control 'em! They also have been told that if they have faith in Jesus Christ they will go to Heaven, and if they are non-believers they will burn in Hell. Now this obviously is there to try to get as many followers as possible, it convinces a lot of people to follow the Bible and to share their beliefs, so that one day after they die they'll go to an amazing fabulous place!

I actually don't see a problem with wanting to be in a religion because of these reasons if it makes them happy and they don't bother anyone else because they don't share the same beliefs.

But I personally see all these reasons as weakness.

But it does bother other people, religion causes too much conflict, grief and idiocy to be a good thing. It doesn't have any place in society today.

quote:

Many Christians try to claim that Jesus brought a new Covenant with God, so the Old Testament is no longer binding. They run into problems because that makes God look inconsistent.



I didn't know that! But I'm definatly not suprised at all. The concept of God was created by people a long time ago, and as such they will definatly encounter some problems when things change. So it makes sense Christians would do whatever in their power to make God seem consistent, real and attract new followers, not to mention keep current believers happy. emoticon

Also I definatly don't think a God would have let horrible and evil things to happen just to let us 'progress' and 'develop' to me that sounds like the only explanation you can think of to make God seem fair. Let's be smart here, even if there WAS a God why would it/he/she create us and just let disgusting and evil acts to happen? This proves even if there is a God around(this is a fact), its NOT a loving one. Life is full of different things, good and bad things. It's with all life, not just humans.

I hate how you talk as if we're incredibly special, "God gave humans free will." Just humans was it? Do you also believe that only us have a place in heaven/hell? That God talks, thinks ad acts human? and that God is a 'he'? (sexist anyone? oh right yes, everyone loves a male leader emoticon). And another thing, we are also animals. (for anyone religious or not who believes we aren't).


The afterlife, another fairytale created out of weakness. People just don't like the idea that theres nothing after death because it scares them and they want to believe theres more, and thus people believe in the afterlife. emoticon Of course no one likes the most likely scenario that theres absolutley nothing after death and you just don't exist anymore.. Who does? It would be great if there was an afterlife(or would it really?), but at the end of the day things die, everything has to die at some point, just like everything starts at some point. Before we're born there's nothing, after we die theres nothing. Life has to carry on, when new life starts, other/older life has to end.

Another question, if everything is favoured around Humans, and God created man in his image. Then why did he take like hundreds of millions of years untill he made man. Why were dinosaurs created first? And why aren't dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible? Because they weren't discovered, simple as that. Man did not know of their existence and thus they weren't mentioned in the Bible. Also the Bible contains many errors and contridictions, if your God is perfect why is the Bible not? Hmm, I wonder. Also the Earth as we know it took many millions of years to develop, would it really take God that long?

I think you are misinformed dear, like so many Christians!

There's also definaltly a lot more people that are becoming non believers. Even though they still shove Religion down people's throats, especially at a young age. But usualy when they grow up they think for themselves. I would definatly say most people are turning away from Religion these days. But of course theres a lot of Christians, Muslims, etc.

Cleamatra said something very true about 'Religious' people. A lot of them just say they're Christian or Muslim even though they don't actually practice their faith or really believe in everything in it or do whats required of them. Most are probably like this!

Its also ignorant to say "There's definatly nothing else out there' aswell. Which brings me onto what Cleamatra said about Agnostics, which has errors..

quote:

Agnostic is the position that one does not know enough to commit to any religion, or even to a position, like athiesm which states emphatically, that all religions are bunk. To take the position of agnostic, means that one needs more information, or life experience, before feeling comfortable choosing a religion. This is one of those, "I'm spiritual, but not religious" positions, or it can also indicate an interest in the study of religion, and be open to a possibility that religious claims have truth, but are so far, unconvinced.



I consider myself Atheist/Agnostic, I don't believe in God but I think everyone is actually Agnostic, its probably the sensible option. Because none of us know if theres a God or something else out there, none of us can say with fact there is or isn't. We're all unsure, thats why we have different faiths. Speaking from a real perspective, we all just don't know. Agnostic is unsure, which we all are. People that say they 100% know that God exists have blind faith/false hope and are deluding themselves..

It's not because I don't know enough to commit to religion, I wouldn't commit myself to a religion in the first place. I already have enough life experience, have no interest at all in religion and know enough myself to say Religion is bunk. I'm also not spiritual either! So I completey disagree with that, emoticon everyone's different and see's things in different ways. This is what I believe it is, put short and simply:

# One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

But if people think otherwize like you on what Agnostic is then I'll just say I'm Atheist again. emoticon

There's probably a lot more I wanted to type aswell but I can't go through EVERYTHING! This already took awhile! emoticon

---
Final Fantasy Dreams
17/Jun/07, 3:04 am Link 2 this post Email   PM
 
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 01-2006
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


I don't know if God exists and I will not pretend to know. You can't be 100% either way but some ay they have had experience of the divine... take it with a pinch of salt, of course but I will never know that they experienced. I think in modern times Religion is used as a control thing but more in Christianity and Islam.
I hate using this collective term called 'Religion'(like there are to go with higher beings i.e. God).
Buddhism(what I am) and Taoism is more about understanding yourself rather than having faith in a higher being, though there are still spiritual elements within them(which is good).

So people don't believe in Hell, Just a Heaven because having a Hell is seen as unfair. Look, I don't expect the Bible to be he idle book for world facts. It was written by humans in a time when they knew nothing. Disproving the Bible does not mean that you are disproving God. It is possible to believe in God and not follow a scripture. I don't know if Adam & Eve or Noah's Ark are true, I doubt they are but I can't go back to that era and check.

I have been waiting for this argument, The 'Religion causes all the wars and bad stuff in the world'. Well, if there wasn't religion... would it be any different? Humans would still fight about something or look for some other difference to fight about. Political ideas, colour, land size, superiority, etc

I can't answer the problem of evil but good things happen and evil things happen. God lets good things happen and evil happen. 'If God always stopped evil things, we would come to dependant of him. If he never stop evil, we would all lose faith'. People say miracles happen and that is God stopping evil acts.
I never said God was good or evil. To me, giving the idea hat God could be one or other shows he has limits to his powers because he has to conform to a higher power called 'Good and Evil'. Humans seem to be the only animal to express a 'Free will' because we are the only animal with consciousness. I don't know what goes to heaven, I don't believe in Heaven. I believe in reincarnation.

If I died and I found that I ceased to exist, I would be surprised(well I wouldn't be able to but I would emoticon).
Lots of paranormal investigations still going on and still no answers. You can't prove it either way but I think there is more evidence to suggest an afterlife, IMO. Near-death experience, bedside phenomena, reincarnation stories, ghost stories (I really don't these seriously though).

As I have said, the Bible is not there to be taken seriously. Only humans say tat God is focused around us, we don't know what God has created. He could made lots of life and souls on lots of different planets, I really don't know. A lot of this lies around are sentience n stuff.

A lot of young people are non-believers because they see it as 'uncool' and a lot of them want to be independent and not apart of the establishment. When people grow up, a lot take up their own philosophical stance which usually leads to a belief in something. I have watched people turn from non-believer to believer simple because they believe in something. They don't go to church or read the Bible but they believe
17/Jun/07, 12:17 pm Link 2 this post  
 
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Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
Loc: London, England
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


I don't think anyone's had experience with the 'divine that is God', they most likely already believed and then something happened to them and they put it down to their God being involved.

quote:

I have been waiting for this argument, The 'Religion causes all the wars and bad stuff in the world'. Well, if there wasn't religion... would it be any different? Humans would still fight about something or look for some other difference to fight about. Political ideas, colour, land size, superiority, etc



I never said religion causes all wars and bad stuff in the world, I said "religion causes too much conflict, grief and idiocy to be a good thing" and I don't think it has a place in society today, I believe it causes more bad than good. So don't put words in my mouth! And of course there would still be conflict and people will still fight even without it, thats obvious.

quote:

I can't answer the problem of evil but good things happen and evil things happen. God lets good things happen and evil happen. 'If God always stopped evil things, we would come to dependant of him. If he never stop evil, we would all lose faith'. People say miracles happen and that is God stopping evil acts.



Haha, funny how if God kept helping people you believe everyone would become too dependant on him. Yet another way of trying to get God shown in a better light. That's ridiculus, because God hasnt lifted a finger to help not even once, he doesn't stop evil acts at all. Again I don't think anyone's had experience with the 'divine that is God', they most likely already believed and then something happened to them and they put it down to their God being involved. When in reality its mostly just luck, or someone or something material on Earth thats given you the 'miracle'.

quote:

Humans seem to be the only animal to express a 'Free will' because we are the only animal with consciousness. I don't know what goes to heaven, I don't believe in Heaven. I believe in reincarnation.



What?? LOL your saying only humans have free will?? only humans have choices in what they do? Many animals do and don't do things out of choice. And how do you know other animals don't have a conscious? Next you'll be saying only humans have feelings, memories, etc.

What shows reincarnation could be a possibility? Again I think thats just another fairytale created because people just don't like to think theres absolutley nothing after death, whatever thing they can think of that seems to make sense to them or sounds somewhat interesting they will believe. (not that im saying people cant have beliefs like this, everyones allowed to view things differently. but what evidence that you keep claiming is there that backs this up?)

quote:

If I died and I found that I ceased to exist, I would be surprised(well I wouldn't be able to but I would emoticon).



Why? Because you want to stay in existence forever? emoticon

quote:

You can't prove it either way



So they all say, if I told you I believe in the Tooth Fairy you'd think I was nuts. But you can't prove that the tooth fairy doesnt exist can you??

quote:

As I have said, the Bible is not there to be taken seriously. Only humans say tat God is focused around us, we don't know what God has created. He could made lots of life and souls on lots of different planets, I really don't know. A lot of this lies around are sentience n stuff.



Yeah, but a lot of people do take it too seriously..

If God created so many things why isn't it mentioned? In religion emoticon doesnt it always mention God created man, animals, the sea, etc, etc. but it only says that he creates the things that only humans know of!! Then if/when we find another planet that has life, they'd prob add onto teachings God created that planet and those creatures, etc. If God is there, why hasn't he shown his existence? If you created the universe and all these planets and all these amazing creatures, etc, would you not even want at all to show your existence?? Especially considering the amount of people that don't believe in a god! He must be very bored just sitting up there watching everything (which again, how can he know everyone and everything at the same time everywhere??).

quote:

A lot of young people are non-believers because they see it as 'uncool' and a lot of them want to be independent and not apart of the establishment. When people grow up, a lot take up their own philosophical stance which usually leads to a belief in something. I have watched people turn from non-believer to believer simple because they believe in something. They don't go to church or read the Bible but they believe



I hate how you came across just there..emoticon 'when people grow up' like they become smart enough to realize they should believe in God. Maybe when they grow up they realize Religion is ridiculus when they thought about it and is not for them. But if they want to join a religion, fine. Aslong as its what they want and they actually believe in everything that its teaching and don't edit it to their own way. If they don't like the idea of praying daily for example they shouldn't be a muslim. If they're not gonna be true to their religion they might aswell not be in that religion, they're not what they're claiming they are. And A LOT of people just say they're in a religion even though they don't do whats required and whats not required of them. These people aren't 'True' to their religion, so aren't true Christians/Muslims, etc. Say for example how so many celebrate Christmas, even though they aren't Christians and don't even believe in God. But Christmas has turned into a commercial holiday anyway for like 90% of people! Nowadays Religion has become a joke, its become crazily stupid.

Last edited by Zeen, 18/Jun/07, 4:09 am


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18/Jun/07, 4:04 am Link 2 this post Email   PM
 
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 01-2006
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


Some have claimed to have had an experience of God, but you'll have to take it with a pinch of salt. I don't know what they saw, felt, etc... could be anything... aliens.

Most people say that Religion plays the biggest part in society. Religion gives people a spiritual awareness, as well as a moral awareness. Religion does so much good in the world: give money to the poor, the Red Cross first on the scene when a bad event happens. The media only likes to report bad things so we get a bad impression. Religion inspires people, look at Newton and Darwin... Christianity inspires them to discover. Lots of great music was inspires through religion. People want to help in there cause. Of course there are bad elements, there are bad elements in everything.
Capitalism and Communism cause war and hardship.. we should let go of them emoticon

Really depends on what you call a miracle. Many say that God intervene everyday, like someone falls off a cliff and survives against all the odds. Some say it is God, others say luck.

Humans seem to be the only animal to express free will and awareness. I have not found an animal that says 'I exist'. I am not sure animals are aware of their existence, only aware of their environment. I don't know if animals have consciousness but they don't appear to express it.

Only because are society says it could be a fairytale. Really, I could say that 'Love' is a fairytale because I don't see any real evidence for it but I think it is real because of what I feel. The only evidence to suggest reincarnation is real is the idea of reincarnation stories where children can recall memories which don't fit their lives. People go to other countries to find where these people lived(which the child has recalled) and find that it is true. How did a small child know about someone's past life? There is also another theory that humans have an energy running through us and obviously energy can't be destroyed.
You believe what you want, I we still believe in an afterlife(unless some real big evidence comes in against it). I have said this before, there are hundreds of institutes set up for parapsychology n stuff and they have made interesting progress.

Why should God show his existence? Maybe he doesn't have a form to show, he always describe him in a human form 'God is made in man's image' not 'Man is made in Gods image'.
If we knew he existed then we wouldn't have proper free will because would have a divine being on our backs all the time.

When people are young, they think they know everything about life and most don't religion because it is seen as uncool. When you grow up, you become more philosophical, moral and spiritual aware. Some go with atheism, some don't care and others think there is more to life. Yes, you can believe in God but not be a Christian... I was that for a while.
18/Jun/07, 8:54 am Link 2 this post  
 
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Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


quote:

Some have claimed to have had an experience of God, but you'll have to take it with a pinch of salt. I don't know what they saw, felt, etc... could be anything... aliens.



And you believe anything people say?

quote:

Really depends on what you call a miracle. Many say that God intervene everyday, like someone falls off a cliff and survives against all the odds. Some say it is God, others say luck.



Luck. Whenever something good happens to someone and they assume its God its because they want to believe that God has helped them. But when something bad happens, no one ever says its because of God. Because they don't want to believe God has let this happen. But if really disgusting, horrible acts happen and God doesn't do a thing to help, he must be a very unkind God. You can't argue against that by saying hes trying to teach us something, that just does not work at all.

quote:

Humans seem to be the only animal to express free will and awareness. I have not found an animal that says 'I exist'. I am not sure animals are aware of their existence, only aware of their environment. I don't know if animals have consciousness but they don't appear to express it.



Well for starters you can't talk to animals like you would humans, so you wouldn't know whether they said "I exist" emoticon But yeah as we are aware animals do not think as deeply as humans, but maybe animals do know that they exist. A lot of animals are more complex than you think! And do actually think and make choices!

quote:

Only because are society says it could be a fairytale. Really, I could say that 'Love' is a fairytale because I don't see any real evidence for it but I think it is real because of what I feel.



Love is a very strong feeling that you can't express with words, you might aswell say 'Like' and 'Hate' are fairytales aswell, we know these feelings are true. How about the evidence of acts by humans? The thoughts of humans? Even other animals?

quote:

When people are young, they think they know everything about life and most don't religion because it is seen as uncool. When you grow up, you become more philosophical, moral and spiritual aware. Some go with atheism, some don't care and others think there is more to life. Yes, you can believe in God but not be a Christian... I was that for a while.



Becoming philosophical and spiritual is something that doesn't happen to everyone when they grow up, just as any other things that don't happen to everyone, like becoming poor, rich, smart, etc, etc. People are different and not all are spiritual and religious. Being philosophical though doesn't mean to say your spiritual and religious, you can be philosophical yet not believe in God, etc, etc. And of course people have morals even if they're not religious. People grow up differently and believe differently, no certain way of believing is the right way, just whatevers right for them. Even though I think its silly to strongly believe in something that has no real evidence of existing, especially taking the Bible seriously and being small minded, ignoring anything that goes against it even though it has more evidence, etc..

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18/Jun/07, 2:55 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM
 
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 01-2006
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


As I have said, I take people's experiences with a pinch of salt. I don't know what they saw, felt, etc... they might have seen God or it is something else. I am not going to say either way because I would like to keep open-minded. Their views probably wouldn't change my mind either way, my reaction would be..
"You saw God? Good for you"

A better definition of a miracle is when something happens which goes against what we know about how reality should work but I think that is ball because we don't know everything about 'this reality' yet. That is why I believe in an afterlife n other stuff because there is so much we don't know and things always change. What seemed unlikely or impossible yesterday is reality today.

Well you have just made the point, we can't talk to animals or know what they are thinking. That is why Christians mistreat animals because people thought they didn't have souls. In Buddhism, animals is one of the worst form to be reincarnated into(There are six realms to be reincarnated into) because animals couldn't be rational. Animals really don't show any rational behaviour(says the behaviourist emoticon).

That is another good point and it is why you can't base everything on empirical evidence. We don't have material evidence from gravity(though someone said we might do now) and wind but we can see their affects which is why we know they exist. Some say that is how we prove God because the universe is the affect of his existence but as someone else has pointed out, it assumes a lot.

I would any take a scripture too seriously. In Buddhism, many Buddhist said themselves that we should move any from the Buddhist scriptures because we would become to dependent on them and not find life out for ourselves.
18/Jun/07, 8:20 pm Link 2 this post  
 
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Black Waltz
 


Reg: 12-2005
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


hah, really enjoyed reading this thread. brilliant writing by grenseal and cleamatra

im not even gonna try jump into the arguement at this point cos theres just too much info. and all the work seems to be done...

anyways. i dont mind people birng religious, but id perfer to be associated with educated and broad minded people like grenseal and cleamatra that then likes of christians as such...

http://fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx

taken from http://fstdt.com/

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