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Zeen Profile
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Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
Loc: London, England
Posts: 8839
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


quote:

Run Dmcal wrote:

zeen, have you ever heard of saving the best for last?

ahem.


fair play to zeen. emoticon emoticon



LOL, that's better! emoticon

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Final Fantasy Dreams
24/Jun/07, 1:00 am Link 2 this post Email   PM
 
Velocity Eleven Profile
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 04-2005
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


The whole thing about God and Free Will

1) If God gave us free will and free will sends us to hell, then having free will is a bad thing. That's like saying "I am going to give you $1,000,000 but if you spend any of it I will kill you"

2) The whole "God can't remove evil without taking away our free will", well why? isn't he God? can't he do anything? this argument assumes that God is bound to the rules of causality

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Velocity Eleven
25/Jun/07, 3:51 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 01-2006
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


I have animals. Animals show no sentience. I can't see into an animals minds but I have not seen any type of awareness. Humans have language and animals don't... that is something very important. Animals probably have a weak awareness but not a strong one like Humans. It really doesn't bother me that animals might have self-awareness, I believe they have souls and are part of the reincarnation cycle but I don't think they can understand idea that suffering exists.

Free Will(BTW this is a Catholic view) is something given by God when he made humans. Humans disobeyed God by using Free Will which led to the Fall. Humans now choose which course they take in life which could lead them to Hell of Heaven. (this even fits with evolution by saying that: ignore creationism and simply say that when humans evolved and gained sentience was when they turned against God. I am not really convinced by that but it is a view which was been adopted).
Free Will doesn't send you to Hell, a misuse of Free Will would send you to Hell. If I was a Christian, I wouldn't believe in a Hell... only a Heaven.

Free Will is meant to be one of God's greatest gifts to Humans. Stopping evil acts in human’s means we don't have Free Will. Having Free Will means must be able to do both Good and bad acts. Plato said that God could bound by a higher power called 'Good' and 'Evil'. I can't remember the thing Plato aid, though.
25/Jun/07, 6:15 pm Link 2 this post  
 
Grenseal Profile
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Ultima Weapon
 


Reg: 11-2003
Loc: Port City Baltimore
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


You wouldn't be a Christian if you didn't believe in hell. You can't simply cut out the bad parts and only take the good. I see people do this all the time and it irritates me. I understand where you're coming from but given that the bible mentions hell countless times I don't see how you can simply get around it.


quote:

Free Will is meant to be one of God's greatest gifts to Humans. Stopping evil acts in human’s means we don't have Free Will. Having Free Will means must be able to do both Good and bad acts. Plato said that God could bound by a higher power called 'Good' and 'Evil'. I can't remember the thing Plato aid, though.



 The problem with this is that if god knows everything, then he knew how we would abuse free will, and yet he still gave it to use anyway. God pretty much gave the green light for all that "evil" stuff to happen. I think that strips him of his holy status.

I could also say that if god is all powerful why not just make a free will without evil. Only give use the ability to do good. Bam problem solved. This is pretty much what velocity is saying as well.

By the way if we are discussing catholic views someone needs to go get Arbiter. emoticon

---
Icewind Dale II talk

Ulbrec: ...Ennelia and Braston will meet you there, Targos's fate hinges on your success.

My response: I think Targos's fate hinges on how much Shawford can pay us from the Targos treasury.

25/Jun/07, 7:31 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 01-2006
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


Depends how much you depend of the Scriptures. Quakers ignore the Bible and believe in God without it. If I were a Christian, that would be the way I would do it.

Wish I could remember that thing Platu said(and its name for that matter), that gives some insight inot the problem. Anyone here know what I mean?

Is Arbiter a Catholic?(I assume not but...).
25/Jun/07, 8:06 pm Link 2 this post  
 
Zeen Profile
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Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
Loc: London, England
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


quote:

General Queeaqueg wrote:

I have animals. Animals show no sentience. I can't see into an animals minds but I have not seen any type of awareness. Humans have language and animals don't... that is something very important. Animals probably have a weak awareness but not a strong one like Humans. It really doesn't bother me that animals might have self-awareness, I believe they have souls and are part of the reincarnation cycle but I don't think they can understand idea that suffering exists.




Well then you tell me how would you know if an animal was aware of their existance? You don't give me any examples. The only way that would convince you is if they said it to you, which isn't possible. Did you go to that link I gave? Pretty much is in favour that they do acknowledge they exist, because of certain actions they do.

Animals have language and communicate,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_language

I'd like to believe humans and animals have souls. Well animals DO suffer just as we humans do. You do know animals can get depressed right?? And depression is suffering.. Animals have strong emotions. They know more than you may think!

If we want to talk more about animals you can make a seperate thread. emoticon

quote:

You wouldn't be a Christian if you didn't believe in hell. You can't simply cut out the bad parts and only take the good. I see people do this all the time and it irritates me. I understand where you're coming from but given that the bible mentions hell countless times I don't see how you can simply get around it.



Exactly!!! Aparently lots do this. They seem to just edit the Bible to fit their best interests. I think its stupid to do that.

quote:

The problem with this is that if god knows everything, then he knew how we would abuse free will, and yet he still gave it to use anyway. God pretty much gave the green light for all that "evil" stuff to happen. I think that strips him of his holy status.

I could also say that if god is all powerful why not just make a free will without evil. Only give use the ability to do good. Bam problem solved. This is pretty much what velocity is saying as well.



More great points from you and VE. Exactly if there really was a loving God he would have given us free will without evil. He would have made it so so many bad things do not happen.

quote:

Depends how much you depend of the Scriptures. Quakers ignore the Bible and believe in God without it. If I were a Christian, that would be the way I would do it.



That is not a True Christian though, if there are so many different types of Christians that believe in different things (some ignore the Bible, some follow it very strictly) then why claim you are Christian in the first place?? Why would you want others to believe you follow the Bible, as isn't thats whats required of a Christian?? When someone tells me their christian I would assume they believe in the Bible.

That's why if you were brought up believing you were from a certain religion, or if your parents brought you up religiously. That you shouldn't claim your Christian/any other religion if you happen to not really believe in it/doubt it or take it seriously. I wonder how many people out there say they are Christian yet aren't true Christians.. Probably a huge percentage (well probably like 90% of em here anyway emoticon )

Last edited by Zeen, 26/Jun/07, 2:08 am


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Final Fantasy Dreams
26/Jun/07, 2:01 am Link 2 this post Email   PM
 
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 01-2006
Posts: 554
Greatness: -41 (+23/-64)
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


This about animals is about sentience n stuf. You can have it in a different topic, if you want.

The Bible is a bbok written by humans, the big book has ben editted n stuff so many times, why not change parts of it? The core belief of Christian is there... God created everything, Jesus is are saviour and when you die you go to heaven. No Hell seems fine to me, my philosophy teacher said he believed in God but no afterlife.
26/Jun/07, 8:39 am Link 2 this post  
 
Grenseal Profile
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Ultima Weapon
 


Reg: 11-2003
Loc: Port City Baltimore
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


   Jesus himself refers to hell on several occasions. If you believe he was the savior then surely you would believe his teachings as well. What I'm trying to say is that you can't cherry pick your beliefs out of a book. I don't see how you can ignore all the bad parts of a religion and then promote all the good stuff. That just reeks of hypocrisy.

   Well if yer philosophy teacher is talking about the god of the bible then he/she is an idiot. You can't get around the afterlife in Christianity. I'm sure some people might try but if they do they aren't following the bible very well. The different Christian sects can interpret their religion as they see fit but all they really have to go on as their main source of their beliefs is the bible. By cherry picking different parts of the bible you are cherry picking god's word. I would think that everything god has to say would be important and so I wouldn't want to ignore any of it but some people seem perfectly content in twisting a religion to fit their own personal beliefs.

And yes Arbiter is Mr. Catholic.


quote:

Religious people have better morals because they have a beter bases for why morals exist butsome religious people twist these morals for own gain.



   You state that as if it were fact. How is basing your morals better than basing it in something else. "Better" here just seems to be a matter of opinion. It is also not impossible for people who don't believe in religion to have morals. How would an atheist's moral's not be as good as a Christians???

Last edited by Grenseal, 26/Jun/07, 7:23 pm


---
Icewind Dale II talk

Ulbrec: ...Ennelia and Braston will meet you there, Targos's fate hinges on your success.

My response: I think Targos's fate hinges on how much Shawford can pay us from the Targos treasury.

26/Jun/07, 7:21 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
General Queeaqueg Profile
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 01-2006
Posts: 554
Greatness: -41 (+23/-64)
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


Not everuthing is to do with scripture, scripture can be interpret and change whenever it wants. The Bible has been changed so many times.
and why not cherry pick stuff out? Maybe some Christians simply don't want to believe in a hell because they don't think it exists... only a heaven. I don't see a problem with not believing hell and being a Christian.
26/Jun/07, 8:53 pm Link 2 this post  
 
Grenseal Profile
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Ultima Weapon
 


Reg: 11-2003
Loc: Port City Baltimore
Posts: 1111
Greatness: 66 (+81/-15)
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Re: This is why religion scares me....


   You're right you can cherry pick stuff out of the bible and believe just that, but that doesn't erase all the nasty stuff you'd choose to ignore.
    Thats my entire point, if you omit whatever you dislike then you come up with something thats entirely different then what the original text actually says. I also think cherry picking out of the bible actually helps show that it is wrong on some points. If its so antithetical to what you actually believe then maybe it is inherently wrong to begin with. It doesn't really matter to me since its all mumbo jumbo in the end anyway.

   Just to prolong this some more if you don't believe in hell then you have to admit that Jesus lied whenever he talked about hell. If thats the case then he isn't perfect and his sacrifice is then meaningless according to the bible.

   You also didn't answer my question as to how having morals based in religion is somehow better.

---
Icewind Dale II talk

Ulbrec: ...Ennelia and Braston will meet you there, Targos's fate hinges on your success.

My response: I think Targos's fate hinges on how much Shawford can pay us from the Targos treasury.

27/Jun/07, 2:05 am Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 


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