reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/t3066 Runboard| reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much en-us Thu, 28 Mar 2024 12:21:35 +0000 Thu, 28 Mar 2024 12:21:35 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291643,from=rss#post291643https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291643,from=rss#post291643Uhh Cleamatra, you've strayed off point a few times aswell as Gren pointed out in those examples. This is a forum and people aren't always just going to answer things, they are going to give their view points and what they believe. I didn't say you said they were the only ones with morals, read the post clearly. I said "When Christians start to believe they're the only ones with morals because of certain things like the whole marriage thing, then thats what really annoys me." When did I mention that was you? I'm speaking in general over the people that think that way. It was challenged somewhat actually, because you debated against us and discussed why Christians believe what they do. And me and Gren are only simply responding and giving our opinions, I've been saying why I think it DOESN'T have to be that way, it doesn't have to be the Christian way because that is not the 'definate right way'. And even if you don't believe the Christian beliefs are better, there are many who do and think Athiests/Agnostics have no morals because of things like sex before marriage. Which is just utterly stupid. quote: I do think that you are more serious by taking the time to go through with it. I understand that some people don't think about it and aren't serious, but I also think that someone who understands the importance of it, who goes through with it, is more serious than the ones who are afraid of doing so. Not all couples that aren't married must be afraid of doing so. My point was you can be just as serious if not more even if you arent married. The couples that have talked seriously about marriage and kids would be just as serious for example, but just because they aren't married at the time it doesn't mean the couple that are, are more serious. But yes people that do get married generally are treating it very seriously, and they want to spend the rest of their lives together and by getting married it shows their importance to the relationship. But I think it is extremely unfair to think just because you are not married you cannot have sex with the perosn you love. As I was saying before, its easy to just say "That's wrong" but theres always more to the story, theres always circumstances. quote:You seem to want to really be right about something I have never debated. You've been debating about it over the last 2 pages. And I don't 'seem to want' to be right. quote:--Most people do not understand this, in my opinion. But I agree that people should think more seriously about relationships. I think its natural for people to understand what they're doing isn't good, but they don't care or think much about it. Glad you agree. ^_^ quote:If a person wants the vow of marriage before having sex with their partner, that is there right. Otherwise, -you- are forcing your morals on them. Or is that okay, since it is -your- morals...? It IS there right, but it is NOT right for everyone else. I'm arguing about the people that shove their beliefs and 'God' to non-believers. I'm not doing it, I don't think its not right to think having sex after marriage is bad. I think its not right to think having sex before marriage is bad. And thus I am not forcing my morals onto anyone. Personally I think I have excellent morals, not meaning to sound arrogant there because I'm not. quote:Not all Christians see abortion as a moral sin. You are guilty of over generalization here. Show me one who doesn't think its a sin! quote:You seem to forget that I am a non-religious type. I just am able to see where others come from without forcing my own morals and viewpoints on to others. I am able to see where others are coming from aswell, I am very reasonable but a lot of the traits of Religion you can never really understand because it is so far-fetched, and you tend to deal with stubborn small minded ignorant people. I just can't understand how people spend their lives taking the Bible so seriously and stories like Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve. I just don't see how they have any common sense if they think like that. quote:I think you can learn a few things from how you went off on me from simply giving the perspective of someone else that you may not agree with. Haha, I think you could learn a few things actually about thinking before you post. I never 'went off on you' I never got angry, I was just giving my opinions which never strayed off topic either, we were talking about the Christians beliefs on marriage and sex, this topic IS about Christians afterall aswell. And I haven't forced my opinions onto you, just expressed it. I always look at the bigger picture of things instead of being small-minded like a lot of people are, its better to do wouldn't you think? So I went into a lil more detail about it all. quote:Perhaps I just have the advantage of experience that comes with age...I don't know. And who smote me, by the way? lol :rolls eyes: This may sound arrogant but I think I have a lot more understanding of things than people that are way older than me, so... Who smote me twice?? nondisclosed_email@example.com (Zeen)Mon, 09 Jul 2007 16:38:41 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291636,from=rss#post291636https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291636,from=rss#post291636quote:As I stated to Zeen, nowhere did I dispute the right of people to have sex outside of marriage, I simply stated how a Christian sees it, and as such, the point is actually off topic. I gave the justification for not having sex before marriage, and you again, want to claim that the only reason for holding that point of view is because of a "page in a book." This is getting annoying.    Please note my response to that claim. "I have problems with people who justify their decisions using this form of logic. " That was referring to people who simply use the bible excuse to not do something. If you wanna justify it by one of the reasons you gave, then fine, they are perfectly reasonable. I think some people refuse to have sex simply because pastor Joe Schmoe told em not to. Either that or they cite the bible as one of the reasons not to have sex which is what I have a problem with. quote:No where have I disputed that some churches vilify sex, nor have I claimed that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing. You are arguing a point that has never been debated. I think you and Zeen simply want to argue because a point that Christians hold has been defended, and you have lost the point in question. Oh forgive me for throwing in a few of my personal observations. It would be nice if all Christians adhered to your definitions but sadly that isn't true. There are some simple minded people out there who interpret the bible literally and try to follow it literally. Perhaps one of the reasons I come off like that is my background. I've experienced a lot of Calvinist and Southern Baptist churches and a large portion of them took the bible literally. I realize not all sects do that but I get especially pissed at those who do such things. quote:I refuse to digress off point. ---------------------------------------------------- Author = Cleamatra Secondly, I have been a bit disappointed in some of the broad generalizations that I have seen recently. Not all Christians believe that the Bible is God's Inerrant word, holding rather that it was written by humans under divine inspiration, and thus alegory, exageration and outright lies, could be placed within it. A lot of the arguments that I have seen recently work well against Biblical fundamentalists who believe the Bible is without error since it is God's Word. One example of a large group of Christians that don't believe the Bible to be the Eternal Word of God is the Catholics. Martin Luther was the one that made the idea spread, he ended up causing the Schism that brought Protestant Christian demoninations into the world, and many of them hold to the idea of Biblical Inerrency, the bane of reasonable argument. However, that is not to say that all Protestants believe in Biblical Inerrancy. One of the reasons that the Bible is the most read book in the world is because of the many different ways to read it, and the different conclusions that can be taken from it, which reflects the thousand year span of documents inside of it and the many different writers that wrote the many books that are included. And yes, you are certainly right about the disparity of gender relations and the double standards, particularly given male and female sexual habits. Muslim "honor killings" are a very deplorable practice, too. In some cases that I've read, female rape victims have been killed in said manner. ------------------------------------------------------- Woops, I guess that didn't happen. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Grenseal)Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:26:06 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291632,from=rss#post291632https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291632,from=rss#post291632quote:Grenseal wrote: quote:That's not true, Gren. Every culture in the known world has a marraige ceremony of some sort, many of which are merely social in nature, which follows that Judaism, in the Old Testament, took marraige later and Christianity merely inherited it. A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines.    Yeah that makes a certain amount of sense but like Zeen said, what if a couple is in a perfectly natural and healthy relationship??? Should they not have sex just because a page in some book somewhere says so??? I have problems with people who justify their decisions using this form of logic. Cleamatra replies: As I stated to Zeen, nowhere did I dispute the right of people to have sex outside of marriage, I simply stated how a Christian sees it, and as such, the point is actually off topic. I gave the justification for not having sex before marriage, and you again, want to claim that the only reason for holding that point of view is because of a "page in a book." This is getting annoying. Gren says:  I understand what you are saying and it does make pretty good sense but at the same time I don't think proclaiming sex before marriage as being immoral is the right thing to do either. Many of the churches I went to tried to vilify sex outside of marriage not matter the circumstances.   Lemme just state my point another way. I have a problem with people proclaiming that all sex outside of marriage is a bad thing. Sure sex can lead to bad things but the act itself is not inherently immoral, its a perfectly natural thing. No where have I disputed that some churches vilify sex, nor have I claimed that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing. You are arguing a point that has never been debated. I think you and Zeen simply want to argue because a point that Christians hold has been defended, and you have lost the point in question. I refuse to digress off point. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Cleamatra)Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:37:11 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291631,from=rss#post291631https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291631,from=rss#post291631quote:Zeen wrote: Cleamatra, I know they feel a certain way about marriage. But what I'm trying to point out is that neither one is right, they are both different views. But when Christians start to believe they're the only ones with morals because of certain things like the whole marriage thing, then thats what really annoys me. No where did I say they are the only ones with morals, which is again, beside the point. I only stated their perspective, which you feel the need to one up, by proving that your point is better -- which was never challenged in the first place! quote:Marriage doesn't automatically ensure a relationship will last. We know that. However, how does this address anything in how a Christian views marriage? If a Christian believes that they are making a vow before family, friends, and God, then it shows that they take the decision seriously. Throwing out a set of stats on the population in general doesn't reflect how a serious Christan views marriage, and thus, misses the point. I was basically saying that too many people marry in order to prove their seriousness in a relationship, or are forced into it because their religious parents/family/etc believe they need to marry. And so when people rush marriage (i.e have only been together a little while or don't really know eachother) then they're most likely going to encounter problems later on and end up getting a divorce. So I'm saying marriage can be a bad thing. ---Again, no where did I debate this, and again, it is beside the point. The only reason to bring it up is to prove the Christians wrong in their belief. No where does one couple taking marriage seriously mean another has to, or that some people don't understand the seriousness of marriage, nor does it say anything about people being "forced to marry." My point was about those who take it seriously and how they see things. Zeen says: If you have two couples and one is married. You shouldn't think the married couple's relationship is more important and they must be more serious because they're married. To put it simply. Here is what I was saying, it does not always mean they are more serious and willing to put more work in. A serious married couple and a serious non married couple may both have the same things, love, commitment, dedication, loyality, etc. And a non married couple may have put a great deal amount of work into the relationship, even more so than the married couple for instance and may be just as serious if not more. So why would having sex in this kind of relationship be wrong? Just because they're not married? Well if thats the case, then its ridiculus. Two humans can show their love, seriousness, commitment, loyalty, etc by the actions they take and not the marital status in which they're in. That's what I'm trying to get at. --Personally, as one who has taken the vows, I do think that you are more serious by taking the time to go through with it. I understand that some people don't think about it and aren't serious, but I also think that someone who understands the importance of it, who goes through with it, is more serious than the ones who are afraid of doing so. I can roll my eyes, too, at your perspective, but that gets us no where, now does it? Having been through it, I think it is a huge step, however, that doesn't mean I cannot appreciate those who want to forego marriage and simply live a life together. That's fine, but don't go preaching to me and rolling your eyes at me because I disagree with you. Your insistence at forcing a point that I have never disagreed with is getting tiring, too, by the way. You seem to want to really be right about something I have never debated. My only debate is that it doesn't address the point. I already admitted several times that you don't have to marry and can still be a commited couple. Is this where I roll my eyes? I'm not sure... Zeen says: Take for example a certain weird person which I won't name that used to come on here, hes aparently getting married to a girl he probably hasn't spent more than a day with just because he has to marry her or her family won't approve. But I am sure he is not that serious with her. He just wants to be with her and he has to marry in order to show hes serious, when the reality is different. Which is utterly stupid. The Religious morals - the Christian morals aren't 'better', just different. --Don't preach to me about something that i never disagreed with, Zeen. I have admitted that I am not Christian and do not find their morals "better." You are getting way ahead of yourself here, and again, veering off point, as you have a tendency to do. I only stated how a Christian sees it, and you are forcing your point down my throat, which I never disagreed with from the start! Zeen says: Yes marriage is serious, its a special event. People should be allowed to marry who they want and when they want without having to feel pressure from anyone else, or be seen as morally wrong if they've already had sex. --No where did I disagree with this. Again, off point. quote:A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines. I agree and understand this, it makes sense. However if two people love each other and are in a serious relationship I think having sex is perfectly normal and natural, there is nothing morally wrong with that at all. There is nothing different to that than a couple who are doing the same thing but happen to be married. Going so far as to say having sex at all before marriage and printing these beliefs onto everyone else isn't right. Like you said morality tends to come from human experience, everyone should be allowed to experience things on their own, yeah religion comes with its own beliefs in regards to morality but that doesn't make they're morals better like they tend to believe. And it doesn't mean everyone else should be following the exact same morals that were handed to them. --Again, which seems to be a common theme, I never disagreed with you here, so there is no reason to debate this. Off point, again... moving on... Zeen says: What needs to be understood is how to handle relationships and sex so people start treating it more seriously and having serious relationships. So basically they don't go around sleeping with just anyone for example. Although people generally understand this anyway. --Most people do not understand this, in my opinion. But I agree that people should think more seriously about relationships. Zeen says: There are always circumstances involved with everything. Believing its morally wrong to have sex before marriage for one causes problems. Look to the circumstances of some people's relationships, maybe they're extremely serious and deeply in love? Maybe they want to get married but the family actually disprove of the person they are marrying?.. --I disagree that it is wrong to believe that sex before marriage is wrong. If a person wants the vow of marriage before having sex with their partner, that is there right. Otherwise, -you- are forcing your morals on them. Or is that okay, since it is -your- morals...? Zeen says: Another thing is Abortion, Christians believe this is morally wrong no matter what. But look at the circumstances here again, what if the woman was raped? What if the woman would die if she had the baby? What if the baby had a serious physical problem that would effect them badly? etc, etc --Not all Christians see abortion as a moral sin. You are guilty of over generalization here. And anyway, this is off point and an entirely different topic. Do you begin to see the theme of off topic points going on here? Zeen says: I could go on, but in life its always easy to say "That's wrong" but there are always circumstances involved in things which seem to be overlooked. People should start being reasonable and seeing the whole sides of the story instead of immediatly claiming it as 'morally wrong'. Of course there are things that can't be excused, but you understand what I mean.. There are some things that people won't agree on in terms of morality, but I really really hate how religious types think non religious types(athiests and agnostics) have less important morals or none at all. This is completey wrong. Morals come from human nature and not just a religious nature. Religion is not really needed. Whoa that was a long post!!  :pupu: --Again, Zeen, you went off on a rant that didn't address the topic. You seem to forget that I am a non-religious type. I just am able to see where others come from without forcing my own morals and viewpoints on to others. I think you can learn a few things from how you went off on me from simply giving the perspective of someone else that you may not agree with. Or maybe you won't, I don't know. But seeing that you felt a need to force your opinions that I never debated down my throat (some of which I actually agree with,) is really disappointing. Perhaps I just have the advantage of experience that comes with age...I don't know. And who smote me, by the way? lol :rolls eyes:nondisclosed_email@example.com (Cleamatra)Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:32:53 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291617,from=rss#post291617https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291617,from=rss#post291617quote:That's not true, Gren. Every culture in the known world has a marraige ceremony of some sort, many of which are merely social in nature, which follows that Judaism, in the Old Testament, took marraige later and Christianity merely inherited it. A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines.    Yeah that makes a certain amount of sense but like Zeen said, what if a couple is in a perfectly natural and healthy relationship??? Should they not have sex just because a page in some book somewhere says so??? I have problems with people who justify their decisions using this form of logic.    I understand what you are saying and it does make pretty good sense but at the same time I don't think proclaiming sex before marriage as being immoral is the right thing to do either. Many of the churches I went to tried to vilify sex outside of marriage not matter the circumstances.   Lemme just state my point another way. I have a problem with people proclaiming that all sex outside of marriage is a bad thing. Sure sex can lead to bad things but the act itself is not inherently immoral, its a perfectly natural thing. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Grenseal)Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:37:14 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291613,from=rss#post291613https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291613,from=rss#post291613Cleamatra, I know they feel a certain way about marriage. But what I'm trying to point out is that neither one is right, they are both different views. But when Christians start to believe they're the only ones with morals because of certain things like the whole marriage thing, then thats what really annoys me. quote:Marriage doesn't automatically ensure a relationship will last. We know that. However, how does this address anything in how a Christian views marriage? If a Christian believes that they are making a vow before family, friends, and God, then it shows that they take the decision seriously. Throwing out a set of stats on the population in general doesn't reflect how a serious Christan views marriage, and thus, misses the point. I was basically saying that too many people marry in order to prove their seriousness in a relationship, or are forced into it because their religious parents/family/etc believe they need to marry. And so when people rush marriage (i.e have only been together a little while or don't really know eachother) then they're most likely going to encounter problems later on and end up getting a divorce. So I'm saying marriage can be a bad thing. quote:Does marriage show that the relationship is important? Again, if you take the vows you are making before family and friends, then yes, it does. If one is a Christian who views marriage as something sacred, then it follows that it is an important decision that they will not take lightly. Does that mean that everyone in the world views it the same? No, it doesn't. But then, that also misses the point. quote:Does a random couple off the street necessarily need to be married to show that they are serious? No, but if one takes marraige seriously and understands the meaning of the vows they exchange, then they are much more serious and willing to put in the work that a marraige needs. If you have two couples and one is married. You shouldn't think the married couple's relationship is more important and they must be more serious because they're married. To put it simply. Here is what I was saying, it does not always mean they are more serious and willing to put more work in. A serious married couple and a serious non married couple may both have the same things, love, commitment, dedication, loyality, etc. And a non married couple may have put a great deal amount of work into the relationship, even more so than the married couple for instance and may be just as serious if not more. So why would having sex in this kind of relationship be wrong? Just because they're not married? Well if thats the case, then its ridiculus. Two humans can show their love, seriousness, commitment, loyalty, etc by the actions they take and not the marital status in which they're in. That's what I'm trying to get at. Take for example a certain weird person which I won't name that used to come on here, hes aparently getting married to a girl he probably hasn't spent more than a day with just because he has to marry her or her family won't approve. But I am sure he is not that serious with her. He just wants to be with her and he has to marry in order to show hes serious, when the reality is different. Which is utterly stupid. The Religious morals - the Christian morals aren't 'better', just different. Yes marriage is serious, its a special event. People should be allowed to marry who they want and when they want without having to feel pressure from anyone else, or be seen as morally wrong if they've already had sex. quote:A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines. I agree and understand this, it makes sense. However if two people love eachother and are in a serious relationship I think having sex is perfectly normal and natural, there is nothing morally wrong with that at all. There is nothing different to that than a couple who are doing the same thing but happen to be married. Going so far as to say having sex at all before marriage and printing these beliefs onto everyone else isn't right. Like you said morality tends to come from human experience, everyone should be allowed to experience things on their own, yeah religion comes with its own beliefs in regards to morality but that doesn't make they're morals better like they tend to believe. And it doesn't mean everyone else should be following the exact same morals that were handed to them. What needs to be understood is how to handle relationships and sex so people start treating it more seriously and having serious relationships. So basically they don't go around sleeping with just anyone for example. Although people generally understand this anyway. There are always circumstances involved with everything. Believing its morally wrong to have sex before marriage for one causes problems. Look to the circumstances of some people's relationships, maybe they're extremely serious and deeply in love? Maybe they want to get married but the family actually disprove of the person they are marrying?.. Another thing is Abortion, Christians believe this is morally wrong no matter what. But look at the circumstances here again, what if the woman was raped? What if the woman would die if she had the baby? What if the baby had a serious physical problem that would effect them badly? etc, etc I could go on, but in life its always easy to say "That's wrong" but there are always circumstances involved in things which seem to be overlooked. People should start being reasonable and seeing the whole sides of the story instead of immediatly claiming it as 'morally wrong'. Of course there are things that can't be excused, but you understand what I mean.. There are some things that people won't agree on in terms of morality, but I really really hate how religious types think non religious types(athiests and agnostics) have less important morals or none at all. This is completey wrong. Morals come from human nature and not just a religious nature. Religion is not really needed. Whoa that was a long post!! nondisclosed_email@example.com (Zeen)Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:09:52 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291594,from=rss#post291594https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291594,from=rss#post291594quote:Arbiter Azariah wrote: quote:If anything, it's the religious people who lack morals. They stop themselves from "sinning" because of what the bible says the punnishment will be What's your basis for this? Are you making that claim that all religious practitioners avoid sin for the purpose of avoiding punishment? Have you considered the possibility that a religious believer may do the right thing because, y'know, its the right thing to do? Sure, avoidance of punishment can be a reason to do the right thing. But far more dominant in Christian theology are the concept of being good for the sake of being good, and doing good for heavenly reward. I know that when I try and do the right thing, it's not because of a fear of Hell, but because Christ asked for humans to be virtuous. Yes, I believe those without religion are perfectly capable of virtue. Humans, Christian or otherwise, have been blessed with a sense of conscience and reasoning. Within them lies the power to make choices, good or bad. But they have the choice. heaven is the ultimate bribe  nondisclosed_email@example.com (Velocity Eleven)Wed, 04 Jul 2007 11:32:36 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291593,from=rss#post291593https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291593,from=rss#post291593 Grensel said:    Yeah and all those beliefs about marriage being Holy and before God all stem from some roots in the bible, hence they are dogmatic. The majority of their beliefs are rooted somewhere in the bible which is why they believe its the right thing to do. Think of it this way, if you've never been exposed to that type of doctrine you probably wouldn't see much wrong in having sex with someone if they aren't married to you. I can't think of any reason why that would be morally bad. --Cleamatra replies: That's not true, Gren. Every culture in the known world has a marraige ceremony of some sort, many of which are merely social in nature, which follows that Judaism, in the Old Testament, took marraige later and Christianity merely inherited it. A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Cleamatra)Wed, 04 Jul 2007 04:33:20 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291592,from=rss#post291592https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291592,from=rss#post291592I'm going to double post simply to keep things organzied for my small mind. Zeen, my point is that Christians feel a certain way about marriage. Whether you argue it is needed or not doesn't address the point in any manner. I'm talking about point A, and you are veering off to point B. However, I will veer off to point B with you, and in doing so, show you how you missed the point. Does one need marriage to show that a relationship is important? Does marriage automatically mean that the relationship will last? Marriage doesn't automatically ensure a relationship will last. We know that. However, how does this address anything in how a Christian views marriage? If a Christian believes that they are making a vow before family, friends, and God, then it shows that they take the decision seriously. Throwing out a set of stats on the population in general doesn't reflect how a serious Christan views marriage, and thus, misses the point. Does marriage show that the relationship is important? Again, if you take the vows you are making before family and friends, then yes, it does. If one is a Christian who views marriage as something sacred, then it follows that it is an important decision that they will not take lightly. Does that mean that everyone in the world views it the same? No, it doesn't. But then, that also misses the point. Does a random couple off the street necessarily need to be married to show that they are serious? No, but if one takes marraige seriously and understands the meaning of the vows they exchange, then they are much more serious and willing to put in the work that a marraige needs. I think everyone knows that not everyone takes marriage seriousely these days. And that's a shame. For the record, I am 29.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Cleamatra)Wed, 04 Jul 2007 04:26:45 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291578,from=rss#post291578https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291578,from=rss#post291578quote:Not necessarily, Grensel. Some people will accept Christianity because they like the morality of which it preaches. Further, this particular example is flawed. The reason sex before marriage is looked down upon is because virginity is supposed to be given to the person that you have commited your life to, and you have made that bond eternal by commiting with the Eternal God as witness. Many Christians believe that virginity is a gift meant to be given only to the one they love, and will love forever, and thus, the reason why the marriage ceremony is supposed to be Holy.    Yeah and all those beliefs about marriage being Holy and before God all stem from some roots in the bible, hence they are dogmatic. The majority of their beliefs are rooted somewhere in the bible which is why they believe its the right thing to do. Think of it this way, if you've never been exposed to that type of doctrine you probably wouldn't see much wrong in having sex with someone if they aren't married to you. I can't think of any reason why that would be morally bad. quote:Secondly, I have been a bit disappointed in some of the broad generalizations that I have seen recently. Not all Christians believe that the Bible is God's Inerrant word, holding rather that it was written by humans under divine inspiration, and thus alegory, exageration and outright lies, could be placed within it. A lot of the arguments that I have seen recently work well against Biblical fundamentalists who believe the Bible is without error since it is God's Word.    Only reason I lean that way is because I think they are the most dangerous types. Plus they're the most fun to prove wrong. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Grenseal)Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:15:20 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291569,from=rss#post291569https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291569,from=rss#post291569quote:Ah, Zeen, you really missed the point up there. Marriage is supposed to be the sign, before God and witnesses, to the loving commitment and all those things that are needed to make a relationship last. Of course it isn't needed, but speaking as a married man, I will say it's a whole lot more than a piece of paper. Making that vow before family members, being the center of attention, and all of the thinking that comes before going through with it, makes it incredibly special. Oh no I didn't miss the point, I know its a special event, I'm just going on about how its not as important as people think. How old are you again Cleamatra, if you don't mind me asking? Its only to witnesses, not everyone believes in God. So by getting married you automatically have everything you need to make a relationship last?? Marriage isn't as big a thing as people make it out to be(You can be even 16 to get married! Thats a joke!). Yes of course it is a special/important event, (more so to some than others) but when people believe you have to be married for a relationship to be special/important thats when its ridiculus! How many marriages end in divorce these days? Or how many marriages grow out of love at some point or another? How many couples have felt pressure to marry? I would like to get married to my bf one day of course, but I don't need it to show our relationship is special/important because it already is. quote:And yes, you are certainly right about the disparity of gender relations and the double standards, particularly given male and female sexual habits. Muslim "honor killings" are a very deplorable practice, too. In some cases that I've read, female rape victims have been killed in said manner. Even the ones that have been raped???? Omg...nondisclosed_email@example.com (Zeen)Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:58:45 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291568,from=rss#post291568https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291568,from=rss#post291568Ah, Zeen, you really missed the point up there. Marriage is supposed to be the sign, before God and witnesses, to the loving commitment and all those things that are needed to make a relationship last. Of course it isn't needed, but speaking as a married man, I will say it's a whole lot more than a piece of paper. Making that vow before family members, being the center of attention, and all of the thinking that comes before going through with it, makes it incredibly special. And note, that I am not a Christian, I'm speaking as someone similar to you in religious beliefs. What I was trying to point out was what it means, traditionally, for Christians. And yes, you are certainly right about the disparity of gender relations and the double standards, particularly given male and female sexual habits. Muslim "honor killings" are a very deplorable practice, too. In some cases that I've read, female rape victims have been killed in said manner.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Cleamatra)Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:01:57 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291567,from=rss#post291567https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291567,from=rss#post291567quote:Cleamatra wrote: Not necessarily, Grensel. Some people will accept Christianity because they like the morality of which it preaches. Further, this particular example is flawed. The reason sex before marriage is looked down upon is because virginity is supposed to be given to the person that you have commited your life to, and you have made that bond eternal by commiting with the Eternal God as witness. Many Christians believe that virginity is a gift meant to be given only to the one they love, and will love forever, and thus, the reason why the marriage ceremony is supposed to be Holy. What does a virgin actually mean though? Nowadays we see it as someone who hasn't had sexual intercourse, but I see it as someone who hasn't been sexual with anyone at all, not necessarily intercourse itself. Virginity in those days didn't just mean intercourse, it meant being sexual with anyone really. So if you weren't married it would mean you were completey pure and 'decent'. Although I definatly see how saving virginity untill marriage is a good thing, in my opinion it shouldn't become a major thing. Marriage doesn't equal = good loving relationship, commitment, trust, loyalty, and all the other things you need to make a good relationship last. All it is at the end of the day is a piece of paper that says your married. That doesn't mean its 'eternal'. They could get a divource. People who didn't wait untill marraige and then married could have an eternal love for eachother and be together all their lives without getting divourced. See my point? It really doesn't make a difference, infact I think its better to know your partner extremely well before marrying them, not having to rush a marriage like so many people do 5 minutes before they've met. I think its a lot worse to rush a marriage just so you can get approval to be together so you can do what you want, it just becomes complicated that way. People should be allowed to do what they like and not be considered something bad just because they did things differently to the way others were brought up to believe which doesn't mean its right. You know how many people that come from religious backgrounds have been murdered because they didn't wait untill marriage? Well in Muslim society this is very common, which is downright DESPICABLE. Also, theres double standards here. They only seem to brutally kill the WOMAN, hmm I wonder why? Could it be because she probably used her seductive ways to get the man to come after her? But its ok for the man as he couldn't resist, right? :nono2: Women are always treated worst everywhere, if a man says hes slept with say like 50 women in his life they would probably consider him a 'jack the lad' kinda person, and probably be looked up to and not thought badly of at all, they'd just say 'hes a bloke' - that seems to be the excuse these days. But if a woman slept with half that she would be seen as a 'whore' or 'slut' etc. My mum knows a few stories of how muslim family members(usualy the brothers) of these women who didn't wait untill marriage were murdered by them, and had their head's chopped off. Also aparently the "police" even cheer these people on after they killed them. All this is so wrong I can't put it into words. These people don't want other people thinking badly of their family, that they're a 'disgrace' so they murder them(as it seems to be required) even though they may not want to. Murder is the worst thing you can do and they think because they weren't married it justifies that. That's another reason why I dislike Religion, it teaches everyone to follow their way and some people can take it faaar too seriously and strictly.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Zeen)Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:31:33 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291565,from=rss#post291565https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291565,from=rss#post291565Not necessarily, Grensel. Some people will accept Christianity because they like the morality of which it preaches. Further, this particular example is flawed. The reason sex before marriage is looked down upon is because virginity is supposed to be given to the person that you have commited your life to, and you have made that bond eternal by commiting with the Eternal God as witness. Many Christians believe that virginity is a gift meant to be given only to the one they love, and will love forever, and thus, the reason why the marriage ceremony is supposed to be Holy. Secondly, I have been a bit disappointed in some of the broad generalizations that I have seen recently. Not all Christians believe that the Bible is God's Inerrant word, holding rather that it was written by humans under divine inspiration, and thus alegory, exageration and outright lies, could be placed within it. A lot of the arguments that I have seen recently work well against Biblical fundamentalists who believe the Bible is without error since it is God's Word. One example of a large group of Christians that don't believe the Bible to be the Eternal Word of God is the Catholics. Martin Luther was the one that made the idea spread, he ended up causing the Schism that brought Protestant Christian demoninations into the world, and many of them hold to the idea of Biblical Inerrency, the bane of reasonable argument. However, that is not to say that all Protestants believe in Biblical Inerrancy. One of the reasons that the Bible is the most read book in the world is because of the many different ways to read it, and the different conclusions that can be taken from it, which reflects the thousand year span of documents inside of it and the many different writers that wrote the many books that are included.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Cleamatra)Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:11:03 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291562,from=rss#post291562https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291562,from=rss#post291562    I think what velocity was getting at was that Christians and religious people do the right thing mainly because an ancient text has told them to do so. Think of something like sex before marriage. For some people this is perfectly natural and is a good thing whilst to many Christians it would probably seem immoral. In a case like this I believe the religious act not because "its the right thing to do" but because it is a dogmatic reaction. They might believe that they are acting "because it is right" but this belief is due to the dogma.     nondisclosed_email@example.com (Grenseal)Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:21:11 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291552,from=rss#post291552https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291552,from=rss#post291552quote:If anything, it's the religious people who lack morals. They stop themselves from "sinning" because of what the bible says the punnishment will be What's your basis for this? Are you making that claim that all religious practitioners avoid sin for the purpose of avoiding punishment? Have you considered the possibility that a religious believer may do the right thing because, y'know, its the right thing to do? Sure, avoidance of punishment can be a reason to do the right thing. But far more dominant in Christian theology are the concept of being good for the sake of being good, and doing good for heavenly reward. I know that when I try and do the right thing, it's not because of a fear of Hell, but because Christ asked for humans to be virtuous. Yes, I believe those without religion are perfectly capable of virtue. Humans, Christian or otherwise, have been blessed with a sense of conscience and reasoning. Within them lies the power to make choices, good or bad. But they have the choice.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Arbiter Azariah)Wed, 27 Jun 2007 04:19:07 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291551,from=rss#post291551https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291551,from=rss#post291551You don't need religion to have a strong basis in morality. Morals exist precisely because humans exist, and without a sense of morality, civilization cannot exist. I've met a good number of "religious" people who were moral, but I've also met a large number of them that were far from morally good. I've met a large number of athiests who demonstrate an impeccable moral code, as well. Bottom line, religious people are no more likely to be moral than anyone else. A person with a strong commitment to humanity can be every bit as moral as a person commited to some religious dogma.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Cleamatra)Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:19:16 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291544,from=rss#post291544https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291544,from=rss#post291544Religious people have better morals because they have a beter bases for why morals exist butsome religious people twist these morals for own gain. nondisclosed_email@example.com (General Queeaqueg)Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:41:36 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291542,from=rss#post291542https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291542,from=rss#post291542quote:Zeen wrote: A lot of people seem to believe that you can't have morals unless your religious!! They scare you with Hell so you do what they want. :nono2: If anything, it's the religious people who lack morals. They stop themselves from "sinning" because of what the bible says the punnishment will benondisclosed_email@example.com (Velocity Eleven)Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:02:26 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291540,from=rss#post291540https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291540,from=rss#post291540A lot of people seem to believe that you can't have morals unless your religious!! They scare you with Hell so you do what they want. :nono2: nondisclosed_email@example.com (Zeen)Tue, 26 Jun 2007 02:13:46 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291535,from=rss#post291535https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291535,from=rss#post291535Thats another logical fallacy known as an appeal to fear. Its essentially an effective way of getting someone to believe your idea, which is probably why Christianity put it into use. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Grenseal)Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:20:50 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291529,from=rss#post291529https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291529,from=rss#post291529Good motive, though. Do a bad act and you get suffering. I have said, I wouldn't really believe in a Hell in the Christian idea There is a Hell in the Wheel of Life but it is different.nondisclosed_email@example.com (General Queeaqueg)Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:20:06 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291518,from=rss#post291518https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p291518,from=rss#post291518quote:Zeen wrote: I'm not saying you only need Religion to have morals. If you need the threat of hell in order to not kill anybody, I call that insanitynondisclosed_email@example.com (Velocity Eleven)Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:59:45 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p287339,from=rss#post287339https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p287339,from=rss#post287339took the day off college. bored. decided to read this thread. its actually brilliantnondisclosed_email@example.com (Run Dmcal)Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:20:28 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67762,from=rss#post67762https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67762,from=rss#post67762Wow this topic is pretty big... *pulls it back on topic* I dont know what I'd call myself, Im your typical person I guess. I am very much into world culture and philsophy, Ive read everything from Friedrich Nietzsche, to Aleister Crowley, to Anton LaVey, but I have 2 bibles (NiV and King James) sitting on my bookshelf. Im into the darkest and most F'ed-up stuff you could think of, the majority of it being quite disturbing to the general public, but at the same time, my family and my friends are all very Christian. I try not to be overly judgemental or closed-minded. I dont just own the bible, I've read over it, i live and grew up in a Christian household and it has always been of interest to me. Not only that, but I have also taken the time to read through Paradise Lost by John Milton and The Inferno by Dante, though purly fictional and not relating to the bible in any belief or contrasting way, both are simply just good very deep books, which is why I read them. I also read alot of Norse myth and Odinism, but I am not chained down to any one of these religions. I have read books from Aleister Crowley and his interpitation of Satanism and Anton LaVey and his interpitation of Satanism, and yet, I go to church on Sundays, and have friends that go to church on Sundays. What I find aggrivating however, is when someone who is tied down to one religious belief says something along the lines of "thats evil" or "its about the devil" or something along those lines about a poem or song or painting or anything art related. It proves the ignorance of people who do not have an open mind, unless you have read up on Satanism and things that are supposedly "evil," you have no idea, or right, to judge what is and is not the interpitation of "the devil." It shows ignorance, and lack of brains when someone says something offensive about one religious belief, with no background or study of that religious belief. -_- THAT is what pisses me off. People who are closed minded and will lock themselves down so hard on something they will do things like that. Honestly, i watch snuff films, i have a fascination with death because for a very long time i wanted to be a mortician, I have high respects for these people because of what they do, there is no higher level of respect to be payed to the dead than to have them prepaired for a viewing, or to find out what really took them away from their life through means of science and technology. So when I say I have a fascination with death and like to watch snuff, dont assume "youre ill and sick in the head, get some help." If you knew anything at all, you would know that alot of videos like that are used for scientific research and learning purposes by people like me who are interrested in that field of study. My grandmother who I live with is Christian on a level to where it should be illegal, boarderline Shaker to be technical, my mother is Roman Catholic and somehow has some sort of weird Wiccan beliefs as well, we all live in the same house. Ive also read up on Paganism and Wicca, yet, I go to church and have Christian friends... All in all, what I am is someone with a vast range of different interests, though because of this I cannot aply them all to one particular type of person, so I know what to say and talk about to one person or another and what to not say and such. Somehow, I wont be supprised if someone reads this, and gets offended or angry. Im not looking to lock myself down to one religious belief system. Its not about morals, its deeper than morals, its values. What is it that you value in life, most people do not take this into consideration until after they have been faced with their own mortality. Though I have never experienced this thankfully, I honestly value my values, highly, because when making a choice in life about something to gain, you should really be looking at what you're going to lose, and worry less about what you're going to gain for you benefit.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Amarus)Thu, 14 Sep 2006 08:32:13 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67761,from=rss#post67761https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67761,from=rss#post67761I wouldn't like to be in a hurry waiting for you to reply.nondisclosed_email@example.com (floorspud)Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:11:55 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67760,from=rss#post67760https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67760,from=rss#post67760cant stand it, After 9 years in Newyork. Georgia is garbage...... nondisclosed_email@example.com (omnislash04)Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:14:40 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67759,from=rss#post67759https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67759,from=rss#post67759Hehe, in my opinion yes, but I don't know how you feel about it. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Grenseal)Wed, 14 Jun 2006 02:12:19 +0000 reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67758,from=rss#post67758https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67758,from=rss#post67758lol, Jeez, I guess i got the bad end of the stick, I moved from New York to Georgia. jeez.nondisclosed_email@example.com (omnislash04)Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:25:56 +0000 Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so muchhttps://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67757,from=rss#post67757https://bffdreamsforums.runboard.com/p67757,from=rss#post67757quote:I hope to get out... >.<    I wish you luck. It sucks to be living in a place that you hate. I spent 5 years doing it and I definitely know what it feels like. quote: I hate the idea of Americans, and I am one!    Well you shouldn't especially if you are Baltimorean American. quote:I know Christians like that too, but there more that aren't than are.   Thats sad but true. Most seem to hold themselves on a higher plane of existence compared to us "lost" people. I quite frankly revel in being lost. quote:I don't 'hate' the belief, I hate how people interpret it.       You should hate the idea for it's the root of the entire problem. If they didn't have their set of beliefs, aka the bible, telling them what to do and how to think, then I doubt christianity would be as strong as it currently is. Their "belief" is chock full of blatantly false claims which lack even the most rudimentary of evidence. I'd rather that people interpret the whole thing to be false, because that, in my opinion, is the only acceptable interpretation. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Grenseal)Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:30:36 +0000