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Grenseal Profile
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Ultima Weapon
 


Reg: 11-2003
Loc: Port City Baltimore
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


    I think what velocity was getting at was that Christians and religious people do the right thing mainly because an ancient text has told them to do so. Think of something like sex before marriage. For some people this is perfectly natural and is a good thing whilst to many Christians it would probably seem immoral. In a case like this I believe the religious act not because "its the right thing to do" but because it is a dogmatic reaction. They might believe that they are acting "because it is right" but this belief is due to the dogma.



    

---
Icewind Dale II talk

Ulbrec: ...Ennelia and Braston will meet you there, Targos's fate hinges on your success.

My response: I think Targos's fate hinges on how much Shawford can pay us from the Targos treasury.

28/Jun/07, 12:21 am Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
Cleamatra Profile
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Guardian
 


Reg: 08-2005
Loc: Kuroishi -shi, Aomori Japan
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


Not necessarily, Grensel.

Some people will accept Christianity because they like the morality of which it preaches.

Further, this particular example is flawed.

The reason sex before marriage is looked down upon is because virginity is supposed to be given to the person that you have commited your life to, and you have made that bond eternal by commiting with the Eternal God as witness.

Many Christians believe that virginity is a gift meant to be given only to the one they love, and will love forever, and thus, the reason why the marriage ceremony is supposed to be Holy.

Secondly, I have been a bit disappointed in some of the broad generalizations that I have seen recently. Not all Christians believe that the Bible is God's Inerrant word, holding rather that it was written by humans under divine inspiration, and thus alegory, exageration and outright lies, could be placed within it. A lot of the arguments that I have seen recently work well against Biblical fundamentalists who believe the Bible is without error since it is God's Word.

One example of a large group of Christians that don't believe the Bible to be the Eternal Word of God is the Catholics. Martin Luther was the one that made the idea spread, he ended up causing the Schism that brought Protestant Christian demoninations into the world, and many of them hold to the idea of Biblical Inerrency, the bane of reasonable argument. However, that is not to say that all Protestants believe in Biblical Inerrancy.

One of the reasons that the Bible is the most read book in the world is because of the many different ways to read it, and the different conclusions that can be taken from it, which reflects the thousand year span of documents inside of it and the many different writers that wrote the many books that are included.

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28/Jun/07, 12:11 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM MSN YIM
 
Zeen Profile
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Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
Loc: London, England
Posts: 8839
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


quote:

Cleamatra wrote:

Not necessarily, Grensel.

Some people will accept Christianity because they like the morality of which it preaches.

Further, this particular example is flawed.

The reason sex before marriage is looked down upon is because virginity is supposed to be given to the person that you have commited your life to, and you have made that bond eternal by commiting with the Eternal God as witness.

Many Christians believe that virginity is a gift meant to be given only to the one they love, and will love forever, and thus, the reason why the marriage ceremony is supposed to be Holy.




What does a virgin actually mean though? Nowadays we see it as someone who hasn't had sexual intercourse, but I see it as someone who hasn't been sexual with anyone at all, not necessarily intercourse itself. Virginity in those days didn't just mean intercourse, it meant being sexual with anyone really. So if you weren't married it would mean you were completey pure and 'decent'.

Although I definatly see how saving virginity untill marriage is a good thing, in my opinion it shouldn't become a major thing. Marriage doesn't equal = good loving relationship, commitment, trust, loyalty, and all the other things you need to make a good relationship last. All it is at the end of the day is a piece of paper that says your married. That doesn't mean its 'eternal'. They could get a divource. People who didn't wait untill marraige and then married could have an eternal love for eachother and be together all their lives without getting divourced. See my point? It really doesn't make a difference, infact I think its better to know your partner extremely well before marrying them, not having to rush a marriage like so many people do 5 minutes before they've met. I think its a lot worse to rush a marriage just so you can get approval to be together so you can do what you want, it just becomes complicated that way. People should be allowed to do what they like and not be considered something bad just because they did things differently to the way others were brought up to believe which doesn't mean its right. You know how many people that come from religious backgrounds have been murdered because they didn't wait untill marriage? Well in Muslim society this is very common, which is downright DESPICABLE. Also, theres double standards here. They only seem to brutally kill the WOMAN, hmm I wonder why? Could it be because she probably used her seductive ways to get the man to come after her? But its ok for the man as he couldn't resist, right? :nono2: Women are always treated worst everywhere, if a man says hes slept with say like 50 women in his life they would probably consider him a 'jack the lad' kinda person, and probably be looked up to and not thought badly of at all, they'd just say 'hes a bloke' - that seems to be the excuse these days. But if a woman slept with half that she would be seen as a 'whore' or 'slut' etc.

My mum knows a few stories of how muslim family members(usualy the brothers) of these women who didn't wait untill marriage were murdered by them, and had their head's chopped off. Also aparently the "police" even cheer these people on after they killed them. All this is so wrong I can't put it into words. These people don't want other people thinking badly of their family, that they're a 'disgrace' so they murder them(as it seems to be required) even though they may not want to. Murder is the worst thing you can do and they think because they weren't married it justifies that. emoticon

That's another reason why I dislike Religion, it teaches everyone to follow their way and some people can take it faaar too seriously and strictly.

Last edited by Zeen, 29/Jun/07, 4:33 am


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28/Jun/07, 4:31 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM
 
Cleamatra Profile
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Guardian
 


Reg: 08-2005
Loc: Kuroishi -shi, Aomori Japan
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


Ah, Zeen, you really missed the point up there.

Marriage is supposed to be the sign, before God and witnesses, to the loving commitment and all those things that are needed to make a relationship last. Of course it isn't needed, but speaking as a married man, I will say it's a whole lot more than a piece of paper. Making that vow before family members, being the center of attention, and all of the thinking that comes before going through with it, makes it incredibly special.

And note, that I am not a Christian, I'm speaking as someone similar to you in religious beliefs. What I was trying to point out was what it means, traditionally, for Christians.

And yes, you are certainly right about the disparity of gender relations and the double standards, particularly given male and female sexual habits. Muslim "honor killings" are a very deplorable practice, too. In some cases that I've read, female rape victims have been killed in said manner.

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29/Jun/07, 7:01 am Link 2 this post Email   PM MSN YIM
 
Zeen Profile
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Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
Loc: London, England
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


quote:

Ah, Zeen, you really missed the point up there.

Marriage is supposed to be the sign, before God and witnesses, to the loving commitment and all those things that are needed to make a relationship last. Of course it isn't needed, but speaking as a married man, I will say it's a whole lot more than a piece of paper. Making that vow before family members, being the center of attention, and all of the thinking that comes before going through with it, makes it incredibly special.



Oh no I didn't miss the point, I know its a special event, I'm just going on about how its not as important as people think. emoticon

How old are you again Cleamatra, if you don't mind me asking? emoticon

Its only to witnesses, not everyone believes in God. emoticon

So by getting married you automatically have everything you need to make a relationship last?? emoticon Marriage isn't as big a thing as people make it out to be(You can be even 16 to get married! Thats a joke!). Yes of course it is a special/important event, (more so to some than others) but when people believe you have to be married for a relationship to be special/important thats when its ridiculus! How many marriages end in divorce these days? Or how many marriages grow out of love at some point or another? How many couples have felt pressure to marry?

I would like to get married to my bf one day of course, but I don't need it to show our relationship is special/important because it already is.

quote:

And yes, you are certainly right about the disparity of gender relations and the double standards, particularly given male and female sexual habits. Muslim "honor killings" are a very deplorable practice, too. In some cases that I've read, female rape victims have been killed in said manner.



Even the ones that have been raped???? Omg...

Last edited by Zeen, 30/Jun/07, 1:12 am


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29/Jun/07, 5:58 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM
 
Grenseal Profile
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Ultima Weapon
 


Reg: 11-2003
Loc: Port City Baltimore
Posts: 1111
Greatness: 66 (+81/-15)
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


quote:

Not necessarily, Grensel.

Some people will accept Christianity because they like the morality of which it preaches.

Further, this particular example is flawed.

The reason sex before marriage is looked down upon is because virginity is supposed to be given to the person that you have commited your life to, and you have made that bond eternal by commiting with the Eternal God as witness.

Many Christians believe that virginity is a gift meant to be given only to the one they love, and will love forever, and thus, the reason why the marriage ceremony is supposed to be Holy.







   Yeah and all those beliefs about marriage being Holy and before God all stem from some roots in the bible, hence they are dogmatic. The majority of their beliefs are rooted somewhere in the bible which is why they believe its the right thing to do. Think of it this way, if you've never been exposed to that type of doctrine you probably wouldn't see much wrong in having sex with someone if they aren't married to you. I can't think of any reason why that would be morally bad.




quote:

Secondly, I have been a bit disappointed in some of the broad generalizations that I have seen recently. Not all Christians believe that the Bible is God's Inerrant word, holding rather that it was written by humans under divine inspiration, and thus alegory, exageration and outright lies, could be placed within it. A lot of the arguments that I have seen recently work well against Biblical fundamentalists who believe the Bible is without error since it is God's Word.



   Only reason I lean that way is because I think they are the most dangerous types. Plus they're the most fun to prove wrong.

---
Icewind Dale II talk

Ulbrec: ...Ennelia and Braston will meet you there, Targos's fate hinges on your success.

My response: I think Targos's fate hinges on how much Shawford can pay us from the Targos treasury.

1/Jul/07, 7:15 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
Cleamatra Profile
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Guardian
 


Reg: 08-2005
Loc: Kuroishi -shi, Aomori Japan
Posts: 388
Greatness: 3 (+40/-37)
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


I'm going to double post simply to keep things organzied for my small mind.

Zeen, my point is that Christians feel a certain way about marriage. Whether you argue it is needed or not doesn't address the point in any manner. I'm talking about point A, and you are veering off to point B.

However, I will veer off to point B with you, and in doing so, show you how you missed the point. Does one need marriage to show that a relationship is important? Does marriage automatically mean that the relationship will last?

Marriage doesn't automatically ensure a relationship will last. We know that. However, how does this address anything in how a Christian views marriage? If a Christian believes that they are making a vow before family, friends, and God, then it shows that they take the decision seriously. Throwing out a set of stats on the population in general doesn't reflect how a serious Christan views marriage, and thus, misses the point.

Does marriage show that the relationship is important? Again, if you take the vows you are making before family and friends, then yes, it does. If one is a Christian who views marriage as something sacred, then it follows that it is an important decision that they will not take lightly. Does that mean that everyone in the world views it the same? No, it doesn't. But then, that also misses the point.

Does a random couple off the street necessarily need to be married to show that they are serious? No, but if one takes marraige seriously and understands the meaning of the vows they exchange, then they are much more serious and willing to put in the work that a marraige needs.

I think everyone knows that not everyone takes marriage seriousely these days. And that's a shame.

For the record, I am 29.

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4/Jul/07, 4:26 am Link 2 this post Email   PM MSN YIM
 
Cleamatra Profile
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Guardian
 


Reg: 08-2005
Loc: Kuroishi -shi, Aomori Japan
Posts: 388
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much




Grensel said:

   Yeah and all those beliefs about marriage being Holy and before God all stem from some roots in the bible, hence they are dogmatic. The majority of their beliefs are rooted somewhere in the bible which is why they believe its the right thing to do. Think of it this way, if you've never been exposed to that type of doctrine you probably wouldn't see much wrong in having sex with someone if they aren't married to you. I can't think of any reason why that would be morally bad.


--Cleamatra replies:

That's not true, Gren. Every culture in the known world has a marraige ceremony of some sort, many of which are merely social in nature, which follows that Judaism, in the Old Testament, took marraige later and Christianity merely inherited it.

A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines.



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4/Jul/07, 4:33 am Link 2 this post Email   PM MSN YIM
 
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Midgar Zolom
 


Reg: 04-2005
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


quote:

Arbiter Azariah wrote:

quote:

If anything, it's the religious people who lack morals. They stop themselves from "sinning" because of what the bible says the punnishment will be



What's your basis for this?
Are you making that claim that all religious practitioners avoid sin for the purpose of avoiding punishment? Have you considered the possibility that a religious believer may do the right thing because, y'know, its the right thing to do?
Sure, avoidance of punishment can be a reason to do the right thing. But far more dominant in Christian theology are the concept of being good for the sake of being good, and doing good for heavenly reward. I know that when I try and do the right thing, it's not because of a fear of Hell, but because Christ asked for humans to be virtuous.

Yes, I believe those without religion are perfectly capable of virtue. Humans, Christian or otherwise, have been blessed with a sense of conscience and reasoning. Within them lies the power to make choices, good or bad. But they have the choice.



heaven is the ultimate bribe

 emoticon

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Velocity Eleven
4/Jul/07, 11:32 am Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
Zeen Profile
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Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
Loc: London, England
Posts: 8839
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Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


Cleamatra, I know they feel a certain way about marriage. But what I'm trying to point out is that neither one is right, they are both different views. But when Christians start to believe they're the only ones with morals because of certain things like the whole marriage thing, then thats what really annoys me.

quote:

Marriage doesn't automatically ensure a relationship will last. We know that. However, how does this address anything in how a Christian views marriage? If a Christian believes that they are making a vow before family, friends, and God, then it shows that they take the decision seriously. Throwing out a set of stats on the population in general doesn't reflect how a serious Christan views marriage, and thus, misses the point.



I was basically saying that too many people marry in order to prove their seriousness in a relationship, or are forced into it because their religious parents/family/etc believe they need to marry. And so when people rush marriage (i.e have only been together a little while or don't really know eachother) then they're most likely going to encounter problems later on and end up getting a divorce. So I'm saying marriage can be a bad thing.

quote:

Does marriage show that the relationship is important? Again, if you take the vows you are making before family and friends, then yes, it does. If one is a Christian who views marriage as something sacred, then it follows that it is an important decision that they will not take lightly. Does that mean that everyone in the world views it the same? No, it doesn't. But then, that also misses the point.



quote:

Does a random couple off the street necessarily need to be married to show that they are serious? No, but if one takes marraige seriously and understands the meaning of the vows they exchange, then they are much more serious and willing to put in the work that a marraige needs.



If you have two couples and one is married. You shouldn't think the married couple's relationship is more important and they must be more serious because they're married. To put it simply. emoticon

Here is what I was saying, it does not always mean they are more serious and willing to put more work in. A serious married couple and a serious non married couple may both have the same things, love, commitment, dedication, loyality, etc. And a non married couple may have put a great deal amount of work into the relationship, even more so than the married couple for instance and may be just as serious if not more. So why would having sex in this kind of relationship be wrong? Just because they're not married? Well if thats the case, then its ridiculus. Two humans can show their love, seriousness, commitment, loyalty, etc by the actions they take and not the marital status in which they're in. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Take for example a certain weird person which I won't name emoticon that used to come on here, hes aparently getting married to a girl he probably hasn't spent more than a day with just because he has to marry her or her family won't approve. But I am sure he is not that serious with her. He just wants to be with her and he has to marry in order to show hes serious, when the reality is different. Which is utterly stupid.

The Religious morals - the Christian morals aren't 'better', just different.

Yes marriage is serious, its a special event. People should be allowed to marry who they want and when they want without having to feel pressure from anyone else, or be seen as morally wrong if they've already had sex.

quote:

A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines.



I agree and understand this, it makes sense. However if two people love eachother and are in a serious relationship I think having sex is perfectly normal and natural, there is nothing morally wrong with that at all. There is nothing different to that than a couple who are doing the same thing but happen to be married. Going so far as to say having sex at all before marriage and printing these beliefs onto everyone else isn't right. Like you said morality tends to come from human experience, everyone should be allowed to experience things on their own, yeah religion comes with its own beliefs in regards to morality but that doesn't make they're morals better like they tend to believe. And it doesn't mean everyone else should be following the exact same morals that were handed to them.

What needs to be understood is how to handle relationships and sex so people start treating it more seriously and having serious relationships. So basically they don't go around sleeping with just anyone for example. Although people generally understand this anyway.

There are always circumstances involved with everything. Believing its morally wrong to have sex before marriage for one causes problems. Look to the circumstances of some people's relationships, maybe they're extremely serious and deeply in love? Maybe they want to get married but the family actually disprove of the person they are marrying?..

Another thing is Abortion, Christians believe this is morally wrong no matter what. But look at the circumstances here again, what if the woman was raped? What if the woman would die if she had the baby? What if the baby had a serious physical problem that would effect them badly? etc, etc

I could go on, but in life its always easy to say "That's wrong" but there are always circumstances involved in things which seem to be overlooked. People should start being reasonable and seeing the whole sides of the story instead of immediatly claiming it as 'morally wrong'. Of course there are things that can't be excused, but you understand what I mean..

There are some things that people won't agree on in terms of morality, but I really really hate how religious types think non religious types(athiests and agnostics) have less important morals or none at all. This is completey wrong. Morals come from human nature and not just a religious nature.

Religion is not really needed.

Whoa that was a long post!! emoticon

Last edited by Zeen, 5/Jul/07, 11:45 pm


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