Runboard.com
You're welcome.
Final Fantasy Dreams

RegisterLoginControl PanelMembers

FFDreams is expanding. HTTP calls replaced by HTTPS January 7, 2020.

runboard.com       Signup
Login:   

Page  1  2  3 ... 50  51  52 

 
Grenseal Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Ultima Weapon
 


Reg: 11-2003
Loc: Port City Baltimore
Posts: 1111
Greatness: 66 (+81/-15)
Reply Quote
Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


quote:

That's not true, Gren. Every culture in the known world has a marraige ceremony of some sort, many of which are merely social in nature, which follows that Judaism, in the Old Testament, took marraige later and Christianity merely inherited it.

A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines.




   Yeah that makes a certain amount of sense but like Zeen said, what if a couple is in a perfectly natural and healthy relationship??? Should they not have sex just because a page in some book somewhere says so??? I have problems with people who justify their decisions using this form of logic.
   I understand what you are saying and it does make pretty good sense but at the same time I don't think proclaiming sex before marriage as being immoral is the right thing to do either. Many of the churches I went to tried to vilify sex outside of marriage not matter the circumstances.
  Lemme just state my point another way. I have a problem with people proclaiming that all sex outside of marriage is a bad thing. Sure sex can lead to bad things but the act itself is not inherently immoral, its a perfectly natural thing.

---
Icewind Dale II talk

Ulbrec: ...Ennelia and Braston will meet you there, Targos's fate hinges on your success.

My response: I think Targos's fate hinges on how much Shawford can pay us from the Targos treasury.

5/Jul/07, 11:37 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
Cleamatra Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Guardian
 


Reg: 08-2005
Loc: Kuroishi -shi, Aomori Japan
Posts: 388
Greatness: 3 (+40/-37)
Reply Quote
Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


quote:

Zeen wrote:

Cleamatra, I know they feel a certain way about marriage. But what I'm trying to point out is that neither one is right, they are both different views. But when Christians start to believe they're the only ones with morals because of certain things like the whole marriage thing, then thats what really annoys me.



No where did I say they are the only ones with morals, which is again, beside the point. I only stated their perspective, which you feel the need to one up, by proving that your point is better -- which was never challenged in the first place!

quote:

Marriage doesn't automatically ensure a relationship will last. We know that. However, how does this address anything in how a Christian views marriage? If a Christian believes that they are making a vow before family, friends, and God, then it shows that they take the decision seriously. Throwing out a set of stats on the population in general doesn't reflect how a serious Christan views marriage, and thus, misses the point.



I was basically saying that too many people marry in order to prove their seriousness in a relationship, or are forced into it because their religious parents/family/etc believe they need to marry. And so when people rush marriage (i.e have only been together a little while or don't really know eachother) then they're most likely going to encounter problems later on and end up getting a divorce. So I'm saying marriage can be a bad thing.

---Again, no where did I debate this, and again, it is beside the point. The only reason to bring it up is to prove the Christians wrong in their belief. No where does one couple taking marriage seriously mean another has to, or that some people don't understand the seriousness of marriage, nor does it say anything about people being "forced to marry." My point was about those who take it seriously and how they see things.

Zeen says:
If you have two couples and one is married. You shouldn't think the married couple's relationship is more important and they must be more serious because they're married. To put it simply. emoticon

Here is what I was saying, it does not always mean they are more serious and willing to put more work in. A serious married couple and a serious non married couple may both have the same things, love, commitment, dedication, loyality, etc. And a non married couple may have put a great deal amount of work into the relationship, even more so than the married couple for instance and may be just as serious if not more. So why would having sex in this kind of relationship be wrong? Just because they're not married? Well if thats the case, then its ridiculus. Two humans can show their love, seriousness, commitment, loyalty, etc by the actions they take and not the marital status in which they're in. That's what I'm trying to get at.

--Personally, as one who has taken the vows, I do think that you are more serious by taking the time to go through with it. I understand that some people don't think about it and aren't serious, but I also think that someone who understands the importance of it, who goes through with it, is more serious than the ones who are afraid of doing so. I can roll my eyes, too, at your perspective, but that gets us no where, now does it? Having been through it, I think it is a huge step, however, that doesn't mean I cannot appreciate those who want to forego marriage and simply live a life together. That's fine, but don't go preaching to me and rolling your eyes at me because I disagree with you. Your insistence at forcing a point that I have never disagreed with is getting tiring, too, by the way. You seem to want to really be right about something I have never debated. My only debate is that it doesn't address the point. I already admitted several times that you don't have to marry and can still be a commited couple. Is this where I roll my eyes? I'm not sure...

Zeen says:
Take for example a certain weird person which I won't name emoticon that used to come on here, hes aparently getting married to a girl he probably hasn't spent more than a day with just because he has to marry her or her family won't approve. But I am sure he is not that serious with her. He just wants to be with her and he has to marry in order to show hes serious, when the reality is different. Which is utterly stupid.

The Religious morals - the Christian morals aren't 'better', just different.

--Don't preach to me about something that i never disagreed with, Zeen. I have admitted that I am not Christian and do not find their morals "better." You are getting way ahead of yourself here, and again, veering off point, as you have a tendency to do. I only stated how a Christian sees it, and you are forcing your point down my throat, which I never disagreed with from the start!

Zeen says:
Yes marriage is serious, its a special event. People should be allowed to marry who they want and when they want without having to feel pressure from anyone else, or be seen as morally wrong if they've already had sex.

--No where did I disagree with this. Again, off point.

quote:

A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines.



I agree and understand this, it makes sense. However if two people love each other and are in a serious relationship I think having sex is perfectly normal and natural, there is nothing morally wrong with that at all. There is nothing different to that than a couple who are doing the same thing but happen to be married. Going so far as to say having sex at all before marriage and printing these beliefs onto everyone else isn't right. Like you said morality tends to come from human experience, everyone should be allowed to experience things on their own, yeah religion comes with its own beliefs in regards to morality but that doesn't make they're morals better like they tend to believe. And it doesn't mean everyone else should be following the exact same morals that were handed to them.

--Again, which seems to be a common theme, I never disagreed with you here, so there is no reason to debate this. Off point, again... moving on...

Zeen says:
What needs to be understood is how to handle relationships and sex so people start treating it more seriously and having serious relationships. So basically they don't go around sleeping with just anyone for example. Although people generally understand this anyway.

--Most people do not understand this, in my opinion. But I agree that people should think more seriously about relationships.

Zeen says:
There are always circumstances involved with everything. Believing its morally wrong to have sex before marriage for one causes problems. Look to the circumstances of some people's relationships, maybe they're extremely serious and deeply in love? Maybe they want to get married but the family actually disprove of the person they are marrying?..

--I disagree that it is wrong to believe that sex before marriage is wrong. If a person wants the vow of marriage before having sex with their partner, that is there right. Otherwise, -you- are forcing your morals on them. Or is that okay, since it is -your- morals...?

Zeen says:
Another thing is Abortion, Christians believe this is morally wrong no matter what. But look at the circumstances here again, what if the woman was raped? What if the woman would die if she had the baby? What if the baby had a serious physical problem that would effect them badly? etc, etc

--Not all Christians see abortion as a moral sin. You are guilty of over generalization here. And anyway, this is off point and an entirely different topic. Do you begin to see the theme of off topic points going on here?

Zeen says:
I could go on, but in life its always easy to say "That's wrong" but there are always circumstances involved in things which seem to be overlooked. People should start being reasonable and seeing the whole sides of the story instead of immediatly claiming it as 'morally wrong'. Of course there are things that can't be excused, but you understand what I mean..

There are some things that people won't agree on in terms of morality, but I really really hate how religious types think non religious types(athiests and agnostics) have less important morals or none at all. This is completey wrong. Morals come from human nature and not just a religious nature.

Religion is not really needed.

Whoa that was a long post!! emoticon



 :pupu:

--Again, Zeen, you went off on a rant that didn't address the topic. You seem to forget that I am a non-religious type. I just am able to see where others come from without forcing my own morals and viewpoints on to others. I think you can learn a few things from how you went off on me from simply giving the perspective of someone else that you may not agree with. Or maybe you won't, I don't know. But seeing that you felt a need to force your opinions that I never debated down my throat (some of which I actually agree with,) is really disappointing. Perhaps I just have the advantage of experience that comes with age...I don't know. And who smote me, by the way? lol :rolls eyes:

---

8/Jul/07, 11:32 am Link 2 this post Email   PM MSN YIM
 
Cleamatra Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Guardian
 


Reg: 08-2005
Loc: Kuroishi -shi, Aomori Japan
Posts: 388
Greatness: 3 (+40/-37)
Reply Quote
Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


quote:

Grenseal wrote:

quote:

That's not true, Gren. Every culture in the known world has a marraige ceremony of some sort, many of which are merely social in nature, which follows that Judaism, in the Old Testament, took marraige later and Christianity merely inherited it.

A good reason not to have sex with someone you are not married to? That one is pretty easy: the feelings that people get after they have sex for another person. People get attatched, jealous and all kinds of other things when sex gets involved. Sex can ruin friendships because it leads to awkward moments when feelings get involved. Moralities tend t come from human experience. Religion tends to enshrine morality as a set of codified laws. Most likely, taboos on sex before marriage resulted as a way to keep such acts to a minimum given the bad things that follow when people engage in sex before a cultural norm. Which leads me to saying that people may accept Christianity due to the moral code it enshrines.




   Yeah that makes a certain amount of sense but like Zeen said, what if a couple is in a perfectly natural and healthy relationship??? Should they not have sex just because a page in some book somewhere says so??? I have problems with people who justify their decisions using this form of logic.

Cleamatra replies:

As I stated to Zeen, nowhere did I dispute the right of people to have sex outside of marriage, I simply stated how a Christian sees it, and as such, the point is actually off topic. I gave the justification for not having sex before marriage, and you again, want to claim that the only reason for holding that point of view is because of a "page in a book." This is getting annoying.

Gren says:
 I understand what you are saying and it does make pretty good sense but at the same time I don't think proclaiming sex before marriage as being immoral is the right thing to do either. Many of the churches I went to tried to vilify sex outside of marriage not matter the circumstances.
  Lemme just state my point another way. I have a problem with people proclaiming that all sex outside of marriage is a bad thing. Sure sex can lead to bad things but the act itself is not inherently immoral, its a perfectly natural thing.



No where have I disputed that some churches vilify sex, nor have I claimed that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing. You are arguing a point that has never been debated. I think you and Zeen simply want to argue because a point that Christians hold has been defended, and you have lost the point in question. I refuse to digress off point.



---

8/Jul/07, 11:37 am Link 2 this post Email   PM MSN YIM
 
Grenseal Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Ultima Weapon
 


Reg: 11-2003
Loc: Port City Baltimore
Posts: 1111
Greatness: 66 (+81/-15)
Reply Quote
Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


quote:

As I stated to Zeen, nowhere did I dispute the right of people to have sex outside of marriage, I simply stated how a Christian sees it, and as such, the point is actually off topic. I gave the justification for not having sex before marriage, and you again, want to claim that the only reason for holding that point of view is because of a "page in a book." This is getting annoying.



   Please note my response to that claim.

"I have problems with people who justify their decisions using this form of logic. "

That was referring to people who simply use the bible excuse to not do something. If you wanna justify it by one of the reasons you gave, then fine, they are perfectly reasonable. I think some people refuse to have sex simply because pastor Joe Schmoe told em not to. Either that or they cite the bible as one of the reasons not to have sex which is what I have a problem with.




quote:

No where have I disputed that some churches vilify sex, nor have I claimed that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing. You are arguing a point that has never been debated. I think you and Zeen simply want to argue because a point that Christians hold has been defended, and you have lost the point in question.




Oh forgive me for throwing in a few of my personal observations. It would be nice if all Christians adhered to your definitions but sadly that isn't true. There are some simple minded people out there who interpret the bible literally and try to follow it literally.

Perhaps one of the reasons I come off like that is my background. I've experienced a lot of Calvinist and Southern Baptist churches and a large portion of them took the bible literally. I realize not all sects do that but I get especially pissed at those who do such things.




quote:

I refuse to digress off point.



----------------------------------------------------
Author = Cleamatra

Secondly, I have been a bit disappointed in some of the broad generalizations that I have seen recently. Not all Christians believe that the Bible is God's Inerrant word, holding rather that it was written by humans under divine inspiration, and thus alegory, exageration and outright lies, could be placed within it. A lot of the arguments that I have seen recently work well against Biblical fundamentalists who believe the Bible is without error since it is God's Word.

One example of a large group of Christians that don't believe the Bible to be the Eternal Word of God is the Catholics. Martin Luther was the one that made the idea spread, he ended up causing the Schism that brought Protestant Christian demoninations into the world, and many of them hold to the idea of Biblical Inerrency, the bane of reasonable argument. However, that is not to say that all Protestants believe in Biblical Inerrancy.

One of the reasons that the Bible is the most read book in the world is because of the many different ways to read it, and the different conclusions that can be taken from it, which reflects the thousand year span of documents inside of it and the many different writers that wrote the many books that are included.



And yes, you are certainly right about the disparity of gender relations and the double standards, particularly given male and female sexual habits. Muslim "honor killings" are a very deplorable practice, too. In some cases that I've read, female rape victims have been killed in said manner.
-------------------------------------------------------

Woops, I guess that didn't happen.


---
Icewind Dale II talk

Ulbrec: ...Ennelia and Braston will meet you there, Targos's fate hinges on your success.

My response: I think Targos's fate hinges on how much Shawford can pay us from the Targos treasury.

9/Jul/07, 4:26 am Link 2 this post Email   PM AIM MSN
 
Zeen Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Queen Of Cards
 


Reg: 04-2003
Loc: London, England
Posts: 8839
Greatness: 284 (+380/-96)
Reply Quote
Re: reasons for which others dislike Americans and Christians so much


Uhh Cleamatra, you've strayed off point a few times aswell as Gren pointed out in those examples. This is a forum and people aren't always just going to answer things, they are going to give their view points and what they believe.

I didn't say you said they were the only ones with morals, read the post clearly. I said "When Christians start to believe they're the only ones with morals because of certain things like the whole marriage thing, then thats what really annoys me." When did I mention that was you? I'm speaking in general over the people that think that way.

It was challenged somewhat actually, because you debated against us and discussed why Christians believe what they do. And me and Gren are only simply responding and giving our opinions, I've been saying why I think it DOESN'T have to be that way, it doesn't have to be the Christian way because that is not the 'definate right way'. And even if you don't believe the Christian beliefs are better, there are many who do and think Athiests/Agnostics have no morals because of things like sex before marriage. Which is just utterly stupid.

quote:

I do think that you are more serious by taking the time to go through with it. I understand that some people don't think about it and aren't serious, but I also think that someone who understands the importance of it, who goes through with it, is more serious than the ones who are afraid of doing so.



Not all couples that aren't married must be afraid of doing so. My point was you can be just as serious if not more even if you arent married. The couples that have talked seriously about marriage and kids would be just as serious for example, but just because they aren't married at the time it doesn't mean the couple that are, are more serious. But yes people that do get married generally are treating it very seriously, and they want to spend the rest of their lives together and by getting married it shows their importance to the relationship. But I think it is extremely unfair to think just because you are not married you cannot have sex with the perosn you love. As I was saying before, its easy to just say "That's wrong" but theres always more to the story, theres always circumstances.

quote:

You seem to want to really be right about something I have never debated.



You've been debating about it over the last 2 pages. emoticon And I don't 'seem to want' to be right. emoticon

quote:

--Most people do not understand this, in my opinion. But I agree that people should think more seriously about relationships.



I think its natural for people to understand what they're doing isn't good, but they don't care or think much about it.
Glad you agree. ^_^

quote:

If a person wants the vow of marriage before having sex with their partner, that is there right. Otherwise, -you- are forcing your morals on them. Or is that okay, since it is -your- morals...?



It IS there right, but it is NOT right for everyone else. I'm arguing about the people that shove their beliefs and 'God' to non-believers. I'm not doing it, I don't think its not right to think having sex after marriage is bad. I think its not right to think having sex before marriage is bad. And thus I am not forcing my morals onto anyone. Personally I think I have excellent morals, not meaning to sound arrogant there because I'm not. emoticon

quote:

Not all Christians see abortion as a moral sin. You are guilty of over generalization here.



Show me one who doesn't think its a sin!

quote:

You seem to forget that I am a non-religious type. I just am able to see where others come from without forcing my own morals and viewpoints on to others.



I am able to see where others are coming from aswell, I am very reasonable but a lot of the traits of Religion you can never really understand because it is so far-fetched, and you tend to deal with stubborn small minded ignorant people. I just can't understand how people spend their lives taking the Bible so seriously and stories like Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve. I just don't see how they have any common sense if they think like that.

quote:

I think you can learn a few things from how you went off on me from simply giving the perspective of someone else that you may not agree with.



Haha, I think you could learn a few things actually about thinking before you post. I never 'went off on you' I never got angry, I was just giving my opinions which never strayed off topic either, we were talking about the Christians beliefs on marriage and sex, this topic IS about Christians afterall aswell. And I haven't forced my opinions onto you, just expressed it. I always look at the bigger picture of things instead of being small-minded like a lot of people are, its better to do wouldn't you think? So I went into a lil more detail about it all.

quote:

Perhaps I just have the advantage of experience that comes with age...I don't know. And who smote me, by the way? lol :rolls eyes:



This may sound arrogant but I think I have a lot more understanding of things than people that are way older than me, so...
Who smote me twice?? emoticon

Last edited by Zeen, 10/Jul/07, 10:49 pm


---
Final Fantasy Dreams
9/Jul/07, 4:38 pm Link 2 this post Email   PM
 


Add a reply

Page  1  2  3 ... 50  51  52 






You are not logged in (Login) Or Register an account

Local Business Directory, Search Engine Submission & SEO Tools